I despair sometimes

Right scientist Eben Alexander would beg to differ with you Asim18

Firstly, he's a neurosurgeon.

Secondly, he had a near death experience which has obviously polluted his views. Remember when you're aware that you're about to die, your mind is under severe stress, in this state your mind goes into overdrive looking for any way to stay content. One of those methods, or the final straw, is wanting to believe your 'brain' (consciousness) will live on after you're physically dead. This is why many people magically gain the ability to turn to god on their deathbeds after a whole life of disbelieving.

Seeing a heaven, afterlife or your dead relatives when you're about to die should be seen as an amazing mechanism of the most evolved brain on earth. Not that there is actually a heaven or afterlife. :)
 
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Most evidence suggests that near-death experiences do not, overall, tend to have a substantial religious component. The tendency is for patients to reinterpret their belief system in light of the experience, rather than to fit the experience to their pre-existing ideas.

Seeing a heaven, afterlife or your dead relatives when you're about to die should be seen as an amazing mechanism of the most evolved brain on earth. Not that there is actually a heaven or afterlife.
What should it be classed as when you have been brain dead and returned with veridical information then?
 
What should it be classed as when you have been brain dead and returned with veridical information then?

Hope. Which is another ability of the most evolved brain on earth.


Alexander’s book and publicity campaign have been criticized by scientists, including neuroscientist Sam Harris, who described Alexander’s NDE account (chronicled in Newsweek, October 2012) as “alarmingly unscientific,” and that “everything — absolutely everything — in Alexander’s account rests on repeated assertions that his visions of heaven occurred while his cerebral cortex was 'shut down,' 'inactivated,' 'completely shut down,' 'totally offline,' and 'stunned to complete inactivity.' The evidence he provides for this claim is not only inadequate — it suggests that he doesn’t know anything about the relevant brain science.”[9] “Even in cases where the brain is alleged to have shut down, its activity must return if the subject is to survive and describe the experience. In such cases, there is generally no way to establish that the NDE occurred while the brain was offline.”[10] Neurologist and writer Oliver Sacks agreed with Harris, saying that "to deny the possibility of any natural explanation for an NDE, as Dr. Alexander does, is more than unscientific — it is antiscientific."..."The one most plausible hypothesis in Dr. Alexander's case...is that his NDE occurred not during his coma, but as he was surfacing from the coma and his cortex was returning to full function. It is curious that he does not allow this obvious and natural explanation, but instead insists on a supernatural one."[11]

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eben_Alexander_(author)


Sam Harris (actual neuroscientist): "Alarmingly unscientific"
Sam Harris (actual neuroscientist): "he doesn't know anything about the relevant brain science.”

This surgeon is far from a scientist. Quite the opposite in fact.
 
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Then this ought to be classed as miraculous: a two-year study into the NDEs of the blind doctors documented the solid evidence of 31 cases in which blind people report visually accurate information obtained during an NDE.The findings were published in a book called "Mindsight". They mean congenitally blind.
 
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Then this ought to be classed as miraculous: a two-year study into the NDEs of the blind doctors documented the solid evidence of 31 cases in which blind people report visually accurate information obtained during an NDE.The findings were published in a book called "Mindsight". They mean congenitally blind.

Again. Another amazing ability of the most evolved brain on earth.

Not literally miraculous.
 
Hope. Which is another ability of the most evolved brain on earth.





Sam Harris (actual neuroscientist): "Alarmingly unscientific"
Sam Harris (actual neuroscientist): "he doesn't know anything about the relevant brain science.”

This surgeon is far from a scientist. Quite the opposite in fact.

Really lol:
It should be noted that while he has a Ph.D. in neuroscience, Harris does not practice neuroscience and is not a clinician.
It would have been pertinent to have provided the rebuttal but that might not have been helpful to your case.

Whilst I am not personally interested in Eben Alexander's claim, a rebuttal to many of the comments made by Alexander to Harris can be seen here:

Specifically Alexander responded to Harris:

"Isolated preservation of cortical regions might have explained some elements of my experience, but certainly not the overall odyssey of rich experiential tapestry. The severity of my meningitis and its refractoriness to therapy for a week should have eliminated all but the most rudimentary of conscious experiences: peripheral white blood cell [WBC] count over 27,000 per mm3, 31 percent bands with toxic granulations, CSF WBC count over 4,300 per mm3, CSF glucose down to 1.0 mg/dl (normally 60-80, may drop down to ~ 20 in severe meningitis), CSF protein 1,340 mg/dl, diffuse meningeal involvement and widespread blurring of the gray-white junction, diffuse edema, with associated brain abnormalities revealed on my enhanced CT scan, and neurological exams showing severe alterations in cortical function (from posturing to no response to noxious stimuli, florid papilledema, and dysfunction of extraocular motility [no doll's eyes, pupils fixed], indicative of brainstem damage). Going from symptom onset to coma within 3 hours is a very dire prognostic sign, conferring 90% mortality at the very beginning, which only worsened over the week. No physician who knows anything about meningitis will just “blow off” the fact that I was deathly ill in every sense of the word, and that my neocortex was absolutely hammered. Anyone who simply concludes that “since I did so well I could not have been that sick” is begging the question, and knows nothing whatsoever about severe bacterial meningitis."

In a second blog article in response to the Skeptiko podcast, Harris seems not to have read Alexander's comments on Skeptiko—nor Alexander's book—very carefully, stating "I find that my original criticism of Alexander’s thinking can stand without revision" and further stating:

"[Alexander] doesn’t understand what would constitute compelling evidence of cortical inactivity. The proof he offers is either fallacious (CT scans do not detect brain activity) or irrelevant (it does not matter, even slightly, that his form of meningitis was “astronomically rare”)—and no combination of fallacy and irrelevancy adds up to sound science. The impediment to taking Alexander’s claims seriously can be simply stated: There is absolutely no reason to believe that his cerebral cortex was inactive at the time he had his experience of the afterlife. The fact that Alexander thinks he has demonstrated otherwise—by continually emphasizing how sick he was, the infrequency of E. coli meningitis, and the ugliness of his initial CT scan—suggests a deliberate disregard of the most plausible interpretation of his experience. It is far more likely that some of his cortex was functioning, despite the profundity of his illness...."

Specifically, Harris did not address the "diffuse meningeal involvement and widespread blurring of the gray-white junction, diffuse edema, with associated brain abnormalities" nor the neurological exams all of which indicate severe damage to the cortex and brainstem.

Alexander examined nine neuroscientific hypotheses that might explain his experience, including the hypothesis that some isolated cortical networks may have been functioning. That explanation would not explain the robust, richly interactive nature of his recollections.

Harris points to the fact that Alexander remembered his NDE "suggests that the cortical and subcortical structures necessary for memory formation were active at the time". Harris dismisses the possibility that memory as a function of consciousness may also be—as Alexander contends—independent of the brain. If the memories are stored outside Alexander's brain, they are "presumably somewhere between Lynchburg, Virginia, and heaven".

Finally, Harris completely misreads Alexander's account of coming to recognize that the beautiful girl on the butterfly wing was his deceased sister Betsy, whom he had never met because he had been adopted. Harris characterizes this as "wishful thinking" and "self-deception leading to a distortion of memory":

"While in his coma, he saw a beautiful girl riding beside him on the wing of a butterfly. We learn in his book that he developed his recollection of this experience over a period of months—writing, thinking about it, and mining it for new details. It would be hard to think of a better way to engineer a distortion of memory."

If Harris had read a little more carefully, he would have realized that Alexander's memories were vivid at the time he regained consciousness and that he wrote down every detail of his journeys in the six weeks after his recovery. The memories were "right there, crisp and clear". Then four months after his recovery, he received the photograph of his deceased sister.

"She looked so strangely, hauntingly familiar. But of course, she would look that way. We were blood relations and shared more DNA than any other people on the planet...."

The next morning, after reading a story about a child NDEr who met her deceased brother but wasn't aware she had a brother, Alexander recognized that his deceased sister was the beautiful girl on the butterfly wing.
 
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Really lol:

It says he has a PhD in neuroscience. Which makes him absolutely qualified to answer questions relating to neuroscience.

Whether it's his day-job doesn't matter and is certainly not funny. :confused:

It would have been pertinent to have provided the rebuttal but that might not have been helpful to your case.

Whilst I am not personally interested in Eben Alexander's claim, a rebuttal to many of the comments made by Alexander to Harris can be seen here:

You're forgetting that Alexander has exclaimed it's his life's work to prove his heavenly experience, yet it is not Harris's obligation to refute anything Alexander says. ;)

Good on Alexander for perusing his goals. That's certainly not a bad thing.
 
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You're forgetting that Alexander has exclaimed it's his life's work to prove his heavenly experience, yet it is not Harris's obligation to refute anything Alexander says.

Good on Alexander for perusing his goals. That's certainly not a bad thing.
No it's not a bad thing, I agree. However, he refuses to get in to a debate with him at all, which is :)
 
However, he refuses to get in to a debate with him at all, which is :)

Quite rightly. It would be an epic waste of his time. Just like, for example, it is pointless arguing against religion with a religious person.

One can believe whatever and attempt to prove it to no end. Facts speak for themselves. Such as the fact that consciousness is a construct of brain activity and is thus physically limited to electrical signals between the neurons in the brain. It really cannot get much simpler.

Could you provide answers to the following fundamental problems with the 'hypothesis'.

1. Provide details of the physical process of how electrical signals occurring between neurons, physically escape brain matter, pass through the skull, and end up in the atmosphere.

2. Are these "neurologically charged" particles affected by naturally charged particles in the atmosphere?

I could keep going on, but sufficed to say the problems with this hypothesis are endless, yet the answers to these problems are non-existent.
 
Quite rightly. It would be an epic waste of his time. Just like, for example, it is pointless arguing against religion with a religious person.

One can believe whatever and attempt to prove it to no end. Facts speak for themselves. Such as the fact that consciousness is a construct of brain activity and is thus physically limited to electrical signals between the neurons in the brain. It really cannot get much simpler.

Could you provide answers to the following fundamental problems with the 'hypothesis'.

1. Provide details of the physical process of how electrical signals occurring between neurons, physically escape brain matter, pass through the skull, and end up in the atmosphere.

2. Are these "neurologically charged" particles affected by naturally charged particles in the atmosphere?

I could keep going on, but sufficed to say the problems with this hypothesis are endless, yet the answers to these problems are non-existent.

The amusing thing about these sort of arguments is that you're citing information as proof that you are taking on faith that it is correct, as you yourself cannot verify it to be 100% accurate or truthful without the requisite qualifications in the areas you're discussing that would have enabled you to personally observe the things you are discussing.
 
Even using basic logic the link between the physical brain & consciousness is apparent.

You can selectivity remove parts of the brain & a persons ability's & personality will change to match - split brain patients display huge changes in personality.

As a brain is damaged, function can be reduced on a sliding scale - what kind of twisted logic would assume that when the brain is destroyed all function is retained externally into small me spirit? - if the mind is disconnected from the physical world as some suggest then why on earth does the physical world shape it so?.

This kind of thinking stems from two streams, firstly human arrogance (we are special) as with almost all new age so called beliefs - hugely appealing to ego, secondly the firm belief in the unscientific concept of free will.

A soul isn't needed to explain the world, neither does it bring anything to the table - it doesn't advance our understanding of the world, no inventions result from it, no new medicines to save lives or improve the quality of life of those around us.

That's the key difference between scientific concepts & unscientific ones, only one of them has any value.
 
The amusing thing about these sort of arguments is that you're citing information as proof that you are taking on faith that it is correct, as you yourself cannot verify it to be 100% accurate or truthful without the requisite qualifications in the areas you're discussing that would have enabled you to personally observe the things you are discussing.

I'm sorry to put this bluntly but I've learnt a lot more about the human mind whilst having long philosophical discussions with my brother (who is a research scientist specialising in neuroscience who has had research published in journals such as The Journal of Neuroscience, and the Journal of Alzheimers Disease) than I will learn having ridiculous discussions with people who think electrical brain activity not only continues after death, but then escapes into the atmosphere to continue "living", long after the very cells which nurtured this activity have decomposed beyond recognition.
 
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I'm sorry to put this bluntly but I've learnt a lot more about the human mind whilst having long philosophical discussions with my brother (who is a research scientist specialising in neuroscience who has had research published in journals such as The Journal of Neuroscience, and the Journal of Alzheimers Disease) than I will learn having ridiculous discussions with people who think electrical brain activity not only continues after death, but then escapes into the atmosphere to continue "living" somehow.

That's not what I'd really call blunt, I'm just pointing out that I find it amusing how people in general argue and settle on the viewpoints they decide to take whilst both insisting that they are coming from positions of fact, whilst both sets of "facts" taken to be facts on faith.

It must be interesting to have a close family member in such a position whilst being interested in that subject.

I'm not arguing that you are incorrect or disagreeing with you, however the argument you are presenting to refute the claims that the human consciousness continues after death is faulty, as you are applying incompatible scientific principles. You are essentially arguing against a position no one seems to have taken, in that the electrical brain activity continues on after death.

The argument is that there is more to the brain and a human's consciousness/personality than electrical brain activity. This is something you can't really use neuroscience to disprove, it's like people who try to use physics to disprove the existence of things that are theorised to exist outside the physical existence as we know it. It's like trying to use the best can opener in the world to peel a potato, no mater how good the can opener is, it's not really designed for peeling potatoes, so you'll only get so far with it.
 
Even using basic logic the link between the physical brain & consciousness is apparent.

You can selectivity remove parts of the brain & a persons ability's & personality will change to match - split brain patients display huge changes in personality.


Exactly.

But apparently, in la la land, once brain activity is in the atmosphere, there's still enough left for them to play hangman on a ouija board :D

That's not what I'd really call blunt, I'm just pointing out that I find it amusing how people in general argue and settle on the viewpoints they decide to take whilst both insisting that they are coming from positions of fact, whilst both sets of "facts" taken to be facts on faith.

It must be interesting to have a close family member in such a position whilst being interested in that subject.

I'm not arguing that you are incorrect or disagreeing with you, however the argument you are presenting to refute the claims that the human consciousness continues after death is faulty, as you are applying incompatible scientific principles. You are essentially arguing against a position no one seems to have taken, in that the electrical brain activity continues on after death.

The argument is that there is more to the brain and a human's consciousness/personality than electrical brain activity. This is something you can't really use neuroscience to disprove, it's like people who try to use physics to disprove the existence of things that are theorised to exist outside the physical existence as we know it. It's like trying to use the best can opener in the world to peel a potato, no mater how good the can opener is, it's not really designed for peeling potatoes, so you'll only get so far with it.

Ah. I understand what you're saying now completely.
 
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Exactly.

But apparently, in la la land, once brain activity is in the atmosphere, there's still enough left for them to play hangman on a ouija board :D

As above. Also, to mock those who believe in things that you don't, simply because you don't agree with their beliefs is not particularly mature and does well to cast a shadow on your ability to use reasoning properly.

This is what I would call a typical vocal Atheist attitude, attack and mock the things you disagree with. It's not a good position to hold, and you can refute and disagree in much better ways than to basically say "you're stupid because you don't believe what I believe", you are no better than the people you are arguing against then.

I'm not even arguing from a position of religion, as I am not religious, I just really dislike the typical vocal Atheist attitude. Your beliefs don't define your intelligence, your ability to reason your positions and discuss them without having the need to mock and belittle those who have opposing views go further to define your intelligence than what set of beliefs you have chosen to subscribe to.

Sure, a lot of people hold positions that they have no reasoned themselves in to, and I wouldn't think mocking them for holding authoritive opinions on things they don't understand is necessarily wrong, but it's the blanket statements of, paraphrased but the sentiment is the same, "if you believe in something I don't you're stupid" is never a good position to be arguing from.
 
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As above. Also, to mock those who believe in things that you don't, simply because you don't agree with their beliefs is not particularly mature and does well to cast a shadow on your ability to use reasoning properly.

This is what I would call a typical vocal Atheist attitude, attack and mock the things you disagree with. It's not a good position to hold, and you can refute and disagree in much better ways than to basically say "you're stupid because you don't believe what I believe", you are no better than the people you are arguing against then.

I'm not even arguing from a position of religion, as I am not religious, I just really dislike the typical vocal Atheist attitude. Your beliefs don't define your intelligence, your ability to reason your positions and discuss them without having the need to mock and belittle those who have opposing views go further to define your intelligence than what set of beliefs you have chosen to subscribe to.

Sure, a lot of people hold positions that they have no reasoned themselves in to, and I wouldn't think mocking them for holding authoritive opinions on things they don't understand is necessarily wrong, but it's the blanket statements of, paraphrased but the sentiment is the same, "if you believe in something I don't you're stupid" is never a good position to be arguing from.

I'm sorry the purpose was not to mock, the prime purpose was just to refute using humour.

Sorry I used the term "la la land", but another "dimension" is precisely what is required for there to be some kind of spirit lair.

If one believes in some kind of extra dimension where these spirits can roam without being affected by things in our physical universe such as time, radiation and more importantly matter and weather, they simply cannot actually exist. There is a massive difference between actual existence and belief of existence.

Existence is tangible. Belief is mental. The only way to understand one's belief or faith would be to get inside their head. To understand existence you merely have to look around.

This is exactly what I was referring to earlier when I gave the example of fear and danger. Fear (belief) is in your mind, danger (existence) is in the physical. Unfortunately one often cannot always understand another's fears, just as one cannot always understand another's beliefs.
 
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My issue with some positions is that they seemingly try to use science to prove their viewpoints, which goes against the principles of science, as it's supposed to be used as a tool to observe how things work not why. I find it a bit distasteful how readily people use science as a tool to vindicate their viewpoints rather than the way it is supposed to be used.

That aside, differing dimensions within science, are not outside the realms of reality (excuse the pun). My stance is that the world and universe exists as it does, whether science currently understands it or not, all science does is explain how things are, and at the moment there are a lot of things science hasn't got around to yet.

I think it's a waste of time, and somewhat disingenuous to try and use scientific principle to refute things that cannot be observed as being incorrect currently. As my comments above, I can't help for thinking that you are misappropriating neuroscience to further argue a position you have chosen to take based on faith.

I'm not saying it's wrong to take the position you have taken, or to debate about it, but rather your application of science in this instant, using it on incompatible subjects is the issue.
 
@ Elmarko. What a peculiar position to take?
[QUOTE
Even using basic logic the link between the physical brain & consciousness is apparent.

You can selectivity remove parts of the brain & a persons ability's & personality will change to match - split brain patients display huge changes in personality.

As a brain is damaged, function can be reduced on a sliding scale - what kind of twisted logic would assume that when the brain is destroyed all function is retained externally into small me spirit? - if the mind is disconnected from the physical world as some suggest then why on earth does the physical world shape it so?.

This kind of thinking stems from two streams, firstly human arrogance (we are special) as with almost all new age so called beliefs - hugely appealing to ego, secondly the firm belief in the unscientific concept of free will.

A soul isn't needed to explain the world, neither does it bring anything to the table - it doesn't advance our understanding of the world, no inventions result from it, no new medicines to save lives or improve the quality of life of those around us.

That's the key difference between scientific concepts & unscientific ones, only one of them has any value.

/QUOTE]
You don't think there would be any value in ascertaining knowledge for knowledges sake?
 
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