I don't really shoot babies...

"To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing"...

I think it's very important for all photographers, both good and bad, to never lose perspective on their work.

Personally, and overall, I'm a fan of Raymond's work and style. But, even I don't click on every thread I see him post now, because I almost know what I'll see. I thought his 'wedding thread' was also a little too self congratulatory, and was in danger of becoming an advert! But anyway...

By showing our photographs to others, we invite comment, criticism and adulation (I don't get much of the latter!) whether we want it or not. I think that once a photographer can't take any criticism for what it is, ie free, and either valuable to you or not, then you're well on the way to losing the plot...

Professional arrogance is one of the worst kinds IMO. (and no Raymond, as you've taken a few things the wrong way in this thread, I'm not describing you! :))

The top wedding guys in the UK (and I've met a couple), earn six figure salaries doing what they love, but they tell me they never ever stop learning and take all feedback the same, wherever it comes from, and treat it as a welcome reality check. Getting defensive is something they told me had to be got over very quickly, because at some point in the future, a client is going to tell you that they aren't happy with what you've produced. What are you going to do then?

As a part time wedding photog myself (and a fallible, insecure one at that!), but with a 'proper job' as well, I know what skill and effort is required to deliver a wedding set, and the photography is actually a smaller part of it than most people would think! The time between handing the wedding album over, and getting the feedback from the bride and groom is regularly the worst few hours/days of my life. It's true that photographers are their own harshest critics (usually!), but it's equally true that I've never met any who think they have nothing more to learn. However misconstrued and misguided you think somebodys comments may be (including from folks with a low post count...), if you can't see ANY learning anywhere in it, then it's probably time to sit down and have a think.

Best of luck to you Raymond, but I would urge you to conduct yourself with dignity and grace whatever happens on here or elsewhere. Don't forget that some potential clients may be watching on too... :)
 
Tooks said:
because at some point in the future, a client is going to tell you that they aren't happy with what you've produced. What are you going to do then?
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I'm dreading the day this happens. I honestly don't know what I will do as it's not like you can go back and re-shoot the day!

Tooks said:
The time between handing the wedding album over, and getting the feedback from the bride and groom is regularly the worst few hours/days of my life.
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Ditto. I HATE it!!! :p
 
Bubo said:
I envisage Raymond saying "maximum bokeh" to himself in Crysis suit style whenever he sets up to do a shot :)
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5187055977_732c023fdb_b.jpg


^^Raymond's Crysis xD I'm surprised there's actually a bokeh mod for Crysis :D

I have nowhere near proven myself, I'll just sit tight and let the big boys fight it out :cool:
 
Tooks said:
"To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing"...

I think it's very important for all photographers, both good and bad, to never lose perspective on their work.

Personally, and overall, I'm a fan of Raymond's work and style. But, even I don't click on every thread I see him post now, because I almost know what I'll see. I thought his 'wedding thread' was also a little too self congratulatory, and was in danger of becoming an advert! But anyway...

By showing our photographs to others, we invite comment, criticism and adulation (I don't get much of the latter!) whether we want it or not. I think that once a photographer can't take any criticism for what it is, ie free, and either valuable to you or not, then you're well on the way to losing the plot...

Professional arrogance is one of the worst kinds IMO. (and no Raymond, as you've taken a few things the wrong way in this thread, I'm not describing you! :))

The top wedding guys in the UK (and I've met a couple), earn six figure salaries doing what they love, but they tell me they never ever stop learning and take all feedback the same, wherever it comes from, and treat it as a welcome reality check. Getting defensive is something they told me had to be got over very quickly, because at some point in the future, a client is going to tell you that they aren't happy with what you've produced. What are you going to do then?

As a part time wedding photog myself (and a fallible, insecure one at that!), but with a 'proper job' as well, I know what skill and effort is required to deliver a wedding set, and the photography is actually a smaller part of it than most people would think! The time between handing the wedding album over, and getting the feedback from the bride and groom is regularly the worst few hours/days of my life. It's true that photographers are their own harshest critics (usually!), but it's equally true that I've never met any who think they have nothing more to learn. However misconstrued and misguided you think somebodys comments may be (including from folks with a low post count...), if you can't see ANY learning anywhere in it, then it's probably time to sit down and have a think.

Best of luck to you Raymond, but I would urge you to conduct yourself with dignity and grace whatever happens on here or elsewhere. Don't forget that some potential clients may be watching on too... :)
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I agree with all that and if I start becoming up my own ass, tell me. :)

I do welcome crit but it seems, and this is an observation, that the crit here are more to do with my style? I guess that is the part that is hard to change.

I don't often get crit on, that is over exposed, or under exposed, WB is way off, or its not level, the focus is on the wrong place, composition is wrong, or its not sharp, or even "take it from another angle would eb better".

I get crit on they are not a fan of my style, Shallow DoF is tiring , i know, and i agree. But you also need to consider why.

I don't shoot landscape, or city scape, where you need to deep dof. I shoot people, often indoor, natural light, so i am semi forced to. And when photographing people, to isolate someone out of a crowd, in candid, a lot of the time it is the only way to do it. Clutter is often the problem, so in order to direct the eye to what i want the audience to see, it is the best and most effective way.

Does that sound defensive? It probably does, but if shallow dof is a part of me then asking me to drop that is like asking me doing me something different artistically.

I want to agree and say, YES, i shoot too much shallow DOF stuff, this weekend i am going to shoot the portrait session entirely in f/11. But i can't. Because,

1- its not me

2 - i have never seen a good set of portraits done outside the studio in narrow aperture.
 
As for the day when a client says they are not happy what i produce?

Well, i guess that's why we have a style, and a standard.

When you see the name marieann Taylor, you know the work she produce, when you say Guy collier, you know the work he produce, when you say jeff ascough, you know the work he produce, when you say Jessica Claire, you know the work she produces.

And I

1 - Try to exceed that standard each and every time.

2- Shoot consistently, to that style, so the client knows what to expect.

Client come because they like my work, if i shoot differently all of the sudden to previously then that's when what you suggest will likely to happen. That it comes back not what they have seen. If all my work is what you see, and you kind of know what to expect before clicking on my threads, then to me, that is a good thing? I mean how many wedding photographer do you know that shoots wildly from style to style?

People like familiariity, they come because they want their pictures look like mine. If they want moody black and white then i am not really the guy to go to because that won't be what i deliver.
 
Raymond, the point is that some people will not like you're style, that's still a fair comment. They might even tell you why, and then you can use that feedback to adapt your style or just ignore it. I will be very surprised if your style doesn't change over time, everybody's does.

The important thing is how you deal with it.

Re the client one day not liking your work thing, it will happen, even though they might like your style, and all you showed them was your style. Sometimes clients just do that. Your style didn't change, but maybe what they thought they liked might have? They'll probably have seen all the guest pics before yours, which is both an opportunity and a threat. You can't just tell them they're wrong, and you're right.

How are you going to deal with that? You're going to need a thick skin one day. :)
 
Oh yes i agree, style do change. I can see where i like to improved on, I like to keep the same thing but more polished, i have a long way to go, a long way. My shots can be tighter, more refined, but within the journalistic feel. At the moment it isn't there but then this is my first year, say compare to the work from year one from the professional togs, i think i am happy so far.

However, i won't be if i don't get better.
 
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Im a bit biased as i love shallow depth of field. If it was upto me i would find a lens that would AF on my camera and would be super sharp at its widest aparture, and it would never come off my camera.

I believe the 35G and the 85G both do this, so the arguement that a lens is sharper at F2.8 and above doesnt apply, so why not shoot both at F1.4 if they are super sharp there ? The 35F2 might not be sharp fully open but that doesnt mean that you should never shoot a lens wide open just because other lenses cant do it.

A 35G would be superb in my view on a D700 or D3* however the camera costs near £2k with grip and the lens costs £1600, thats a lot of money to pay just to be able to shoot at a pure 35mm wide open.

Raymond has a 5d2 and a 35L so he has paid that money so why shouldnt he shoot wide open as the lens is obviously good enough for it ?

I do have a question though Raymond, when you presents shots that are black and white, is this because of bad light quality or just because you wanted the shot in black and white ? The wedding one with the crowd of people in a circle is a good example...
 
Shots in Black and White and done for various reasons.

1 - Tone, as in the feel of the photo. Where it makes more sense in terms of telling a story

2 - Distractions from colour

3 - Lighting, often indoor tungsten light with no flash is a culprit of that

4 - Noise, B&W hides high ISO noise better.
 
twoblacklines said:
.4 wouldnt be an issue with a D3s ;) ;)
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Noise will always be an issue.

20 years ago, what we perceive as unacceptable grain was fine then, the line moves as technology moves. Also, when you process a photo, adjust exposure, that add noise into it too.

I agree, it's less of an issue in a top end body, but you can't rule it out completely.
 
Great photography goes beyond technical excellence. Anyone can be taught how a camera works, how to take an "in focus" image.

Where the difference starts is artistic input. Raymond has a style that used DOF heavily, it is a style that can be easily used to distance images from cheaper lenses/cameras and this is vital in an era when every bride/new mum has an "uncle Bob" has a nice digital camera. A 5D2 and a 35L does not come cheap but allow the images and the style he has (and one I personally like).

But like all artists some people just won't get it.

A pro needs to be able to sell photos that "uncle Bob" looks at and says "I couldn't have taken that" he might not even know why ! But DOF, lighting, composition and PP all play their part.

Bottom line, if I go to a restaurant I want a good ambience, good servicie and good food. If I feel that I could have got better at home I won't go back again.
 
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Been reading this thread and refrained from commenting. Don't want to get caught in the crossed fire with my comments but Hodders, you took the words right out of my mouth (and better phrased with 'Uncle Bob'. :))
 
glitch said:
Post count isn't a measure of experience.
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did i mention post count ? I mentioned join date ;)

I find it slightly odd you can be a professional photographer, and be registered on a forum for 2 years and not have 1 jot of interest in partaking in the photography community, but quite happy to be part of the PC hardware one.

Dont get me wrong, i'm not suggesting that just because he's not posted in here before he can't be what he says he is .... I'm more questioning his motives for coming in here and slinging mud around.
 
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I am astounded and disgusted by peoples attitude towards phartars i was under the opinion that the photography forum was one of the most mannered but looks like things have changed unless your in with in crowd no ones welcome and as for phates comment i am gob smacked.
 
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