I really want a job as computer programmer

[FoxEye]

So... once you've "learned" a language or two, and before you have enough experience/competency to land a paid job, what then? It seems most (all?) places won't look at you before you've got 2-10 years development experience under your belt.

Which leaves unpaid projects. I'm not particularly great at coming up with ideas, and starting a new project with no direction or guidance, by myself, doesn't strike me as a recipe for success. I've tried before and with no direction it just fizzles out. But even working for free many places won't want a novice working on their code.

So... what do? Where do you guys get that first coding experience? I've heard people say "make an app" or whatever, but that requires having a product idea, which I don't

 

[dowie]

How else are you learning to code if you've not coded something? If all you've done is read some coding books and try some exercises then you've not really learned to code yet anyway.

Why not check out Udacity - maybe sign up to one of their nano degree programs then (if you don't want to pay) take a look at the projects and cancel your subscription - tackle those projects. Ditto to coursera courses perhaps.

Go on one of the websites that has coding challenges/competitions - for data science related stuff check out Kaggle.

 

[OspreyO]

...
So... what do? Where do you guys get that first coding experience? I've heard people say "make an app" ...

I started by automating really boring jobs at work. Originally stuff for graphics, then Office stuff then apps, websites. TBH I generally have more ideas than I have time or the skills to do.

 

[FoxEye]

I started by automating really boring jobs at work. Originally stuff for graphics, then Office stuff then apps, websites. TBH I generally have more ideas than I have time or the skills to do.

That's part of the problem. Largely, automation tasks are just a few lines of PowerShell. Everybody and their aunt can automate something with PowerShell these days. Every single 1st line techie where I work can and does write PS scripts for this and that. They (and we) can all do it with our eyes closed.

Breaking into proper development is a whole different ball game. Nobody is impressed by some hundred line script. They want to see evidence of massive projects with proper use of version control, prototyping, testing, debugging, etc. Automating the odd task at work just doesn't come close to the kind of experience you need for a developer role, no matter how junior.

 

[OspreyO]

Man you have a very negative can't do attitude.

I said that's how I started. Because that's what you asked. It was automating things that drove me to code. Its was the drive to solve problems. Those solutions just got more complex over years with experience. I've worked on plenty of enterprise and national scale systems, as permie and as a contractor.

The problem these days is everyone only wants the top 10% of developers with 10yrs experience in technology thats only out 2yrs. Also to have a vast array of different technologies under their belt. But no wants to give the on the job training, and internship that produces such experience. Instead we get academically minded people with no aptitude for crating solutions. Its like over fishing.

 

[dowie]

Breaking into proper development is a whole different ball game. Nobody is impressed by some hundred line script. They want to see evidence of massive projects with proper use of version control, prototyping, testing, debugging, etc. Automating the odd task at work just doesn't come close to the kind of experience you need for a developer role, no matter how junior.

You seem to have missed the question - how are you learning to code at the moment if you're not coding stuff

you seem to have some desire/ambition but also an ability to always find excuses to fail

 

[Mr^B]

That's part of the problem. Largely, automation tasks are just a few lines of PowerShell. Everybody and their aunt can automate something with PowerShell these days. Every single 1st line techie where I work can and does write PS scripts for this and that. They (and we) can all do it with our eyes closed.

Breaking into proper development is a whole different ball game. Nobody is impressed by some hundred line script. They want to see evidence of massive projects with proper use of version control, prototyping, testing, debugging, etc. Automating the odd task at work just doesn't come close to the kind of experience you need for a developer role, no matter how junior.

I'm not quite sure where you expect to get experience of version control, prototyping, debugging etc - without actually coding something, and having evidence to support that. The BEST way to do that, even if you already HAVE a job, is to have a bunch of side projects.

I have a job, but also have a number of side projects and stuff on Github. If you think that's a drag or you can't find time to do it, or lack inspiration or whatever, then coding probably isn't the career for you anyway.

 

[dowie]

I have a job, but also have a number of side projects and stuff on Github.

Sorry, just to divert, what sort of restrictions do you have at your place re: side projects?

I previously had a clause in my contract that anything falling within the business domain of my employer, that I'd developed in my spare time, would have to be offered to them for sale (via arbitration if required). They did previously try to simply claim ownership of everything but then narrowed the scope of the contract as presumably the old one wasn't enforceable.

 

[Mr^B]

Sorry, just to divert, what sort of restrictions do you have at your place re: side projects?

I previously had a clause in my contract that anything falling within the business domain of my employer, that I'd developed in my spare time, would have to be offered to them for sale (via arbitration if required). They did previously try to simply claim ownership of everything but then narrowed the scope of the contract as presumably the old one wasn't enforceable.

No restrictions aside from the usual ones surrounding IP - but none of my side projects are anything to do with the business domain I work in.

 

[FoxEye]

Man you have a very negative can't do attitude.

I said that's how I started. Because that's what you asked. It was automating things that drove me to code. Its was the drive to solve problems. Those solutions just got more complex over years with experience. I've worked on plenty of enterprise and national scale systems, as permie and as a contractor.

The problem these days is everyone only wants the top 10% of developers with 10yrs experience in technology thats only out 2yrs. Also to have a vast array of different technologies under their belt. But no wants to give the on the job training, and internship that produces such experience. Instead we get academically minded people with no aptitude for crating solutions. Its like over fishing.

I'm not overly negative, just realistic.

Every job going, as you said, lists 2-10 years experience working on some commercial system as a requirement.

In order to get that experience I'd pretty much have to quit my day job, because I have zero free time at work to do anything, including automation or anything else. They let about 1/3 of the staff go in recent years, and the workload for those of us who are still here is silly. None of it is development work, and we're absolutely (expressly) not allowed to do that kind of thing as we have a development team. It's come up in the past and we've been forbiddden from developing any kind of app - all such work must be done by the dev team. I'm on 2nd line btw, which is boring me to tears, and the main reason I'd like to get into development, which is interesting.

I notice that graduates aren't required to have any experience, just a degree. One thing I absolutely cannot do is go back to uni. I don't have the funds to self-fund and I have no entitlement for a loan or grant, due to already spending it as a youth (and dropping out like an idiot, because my younger self *was* a complete idiot!).

I can, at best, squeeze in a couple hours a week of doing <something> at home, but my question was what the hell to work on? I'm really crap at having ideas of my own, so basically would be looking to join in with someone else's project.

As for how I've learned to code without coding anything... I haven't. I haven't learned to code. I've just read a few books and played around with random crap here and there, picking up a few bits of mostly useless information along the way I can tell you what the difference between CDECL and STDCALL is; I know what the CPU registers are for, have poked around with the DOSBOX debugger and IDA to mess with old DOS games (successfully!). But as for writing a program I've never written anything longer than 1000 lines of code. And that's it. And mostly that's because I've never had an idea for something that's worth investing in.

I'd be quite happy to quit the job I have if I could kick-start a career in development, it's just knowing where to begin that's stopping me.

 

[dowie]

I can, at best, squeeze in a couple hours a week of doing <something> at home, but my question was what the hell to work on? I'm really crap at having ideas of my own, so basically would be looking to join in with someone else's project.

udacity, coursera courses first perhaps

then coding competitions as already mentioned

I mean if you've not even learned to code then perhaps you're jumping the gun a bit - maybe once you start learning then you'll think of stuff you'd like to try anyway

re: the degree you can always study part time - University of London International program for example is very much distance learning and is low cost.

 

[FoxEye]

udacity, coursera courses first perhaps

then coding competitions as already mentioned

I mean if you've not even learned to code then perhaps you're jumping the gun a bit - maybe once you start learning then you'll think of stuff you'd like to try anyway

re: the degree you can always study part time - University of London International program for example is very much distance learning and is low cost.

Depends entirely on what you mean by "learned to code". A for loop is mostly the same in any language. I'm familiar with objects, structures, pointers, methods, inheritance, scope, functions, constants.... blah blah blah.

But like the other chap said you haven't really "learned to code" until you've been a developer for a few years. So in that respect I haven't learned to code.

 

[dowie]

Well we know you haven't been a developer for a few years but you also said you've only read some books and played around with stuff. So why not try some online courses that include exercises to projects... then why not try some competitions?

And getting a degree can be done in your spare time at low cost.

 

[FoxEye]

Well we know you haven't been a developer for a few years but you also said you've only read some books and played around with stuff. So why not try some online courses that include exercises to projects... then why not try some competitions?

And getting a degree can be done in your spare time at low cost.

The courses I've seen (eg the OU) are 4-5k per year. That's a significant outlay. What do you call "low cost"?

 

[dowie]

The courses I've seen (eg the OU) are 4-5k per year. That's a significant outlay. What do you call "low cost"?

I think you're looking for excuses again, why not look up the program I mentioned earlier. Just under 5k all in for the whole degree... you could spread that over 4-5 years or so I think you can take as long as 8 years to get the thing if you like.

 

[FoxEye]

I think you're looking for excuses again, why not look up the program I mentioned earlier. Just under 5k all in for the whole degree... you could spread that over 4-5 years or so I think you can take as long as 8 years to get the thing if you like.

Hmm, cheaper than the OU for sure, although that page does say that not all costs are included, because of 3rd party costs like examination centres.

Anyway... is a degree 100% necessary? There's so much info on Google these days. I really just want to get involved with something (for free), and then use Google to learn what I need to.

In my defence, I did specifically say I wasn't interesting in paying for a degree, so you can't just accuse me of "making excuses"... a degree and its associated costs aren't on my radar. Even £5k is a lot of money to me, I'm afraid.

 

[dowie]

A degree is useful but isn't necessary I mentioned it because you said you absolutely couldn't do one and thought it is worth highlighting that there is an option there to do one for under a grand a year if you spread it over 5 years. You could make use of coursera, udacity, various free content on university pages such as MIT, Stanford, CMU etc.. udacity has plenty of projects under their nano degrees - that solves your initial lack of ideas problem. The various coding competition websites might offer some challenges too.

If you've got a computer and an internet connection then there is nothing really stopping you from learning to code, working on projects etc.. on your weekends.

 

[FoxEye]

A degree is useful but isn't necessary I mentioned it because you said you absolutely couldn't do one and thought it is worth highlighting that there is an option there to do one for under a grand a year if you spread it over 5 years. You could make use of coursera, udacity, various free content on university pages such as MIT, Stanford, CMU etc.. udacity has plenty of projects under their nano degrees - that solves your initial lack of ideas problem. The various coding competition websites might offer some challenges too.

If you've got a computer and an internet connection then there is nothing really stopping you from learning to code, working on projects etc.. on your weekends.

OK last question for now.

I've looked at the Udacity projects. A couple of them are simple games. Let's pretend I've already completed those projects - the reason being, years ago I did write a simple board game in Delphi (rember Pascal?), back when there was no .NET and you had to write your own message loop.

I've also done small bits of coding in Javascript using Canvas in HTML5.

So my follow on question is... how does that help me get a development job? It's still not something you could put on your CV... and it wouldn't count towards your commercial experience that all job adverts crave.

So, indulge me... what's the next step *after* completing those mini Udacity projects?

 

[dowie]

I think if you've got a bunch of projects on your GitHub + coding competitions then that could easily lead to a job.

Udacity even place people in the US after completing their nanodegrees - they're designed in conjunction with tech employers in the first place.

 

[OspreyO]

A degree is useful but isn't necessary I mentioned it because you said you absolutely couldn't do one and thought it is worth highlighting that there is an option there to do one for under a grand a year if you spread it over 5 years. You could make use of coursera, udacity, various free content on university pages such as MIT, Stanford, CMU etc.. udacity has plenty of projects under their nano degrees - that solves your initial lack of ideas problem. The various coding competition websites might offer some challenges too.

If you've got a computer and an internet connection then there is nothing really stopping you from learning to code, working on projects etc.. on your weekends.

I dunno about not needing a degree. I'm not in the UK but where I am you won't even be considered without a degree. I've many years of experience, but my primary degree is not in IT. Not having a IT degree immediately knocks me out of the running for 75% of development jobs in many places. I have to target places where a degree isn't a requirement. If I was starting out again, a degree would be my first port of call. Even were I work now, a degree is on every internal promotions, vacancy etc. Often a degree is not good enough. It has to a degree with a good grade. Going back to do a degree is much easier when you are young and without commitments. It much harder later in life. Contracting seems to be more focused on experience than qualifications. For now at least.