I think you are underestimating the scale of projects you need to do.
I really want a job as computer programmer
- Thread starter Cromulent
- Start date
I think you are underestimating the scale of projects you need to do.
I've certainly worked with programmers who haven't had degrees in the past, it is possible but it isn't ideal. I'd certainly recommend getting a degree but working for one part time isn't exactly an easy task and could turn into a bit of a slog - you'd have to be very committed. It is quite often a requirement for large organisations but for smaller companies, especially where you're not filtered by HR, the hiring manager is going to be more interested in what you can do. Having a GitHub portfolio with a bunch of coding projects on would be great for that.
If you don't have a degree (even if you previously went to uni but didn't graduate), you might qualify for a student loan to cover the tuition fees for part time study with the OU.
The fact that you're studying towards a degree, combined with a portfolio of work would potentially put you in the running for starting a career in development. I'd certainly not overlook a developer for not having a degree when recruiting for my team.
Commercial development is a different beast to academic development. While you learn the fundamentals at uni, the consensus where I used to work seemed to be that developers learned more in the first six months of their first job than they did in 3 years at uni.
Which begs the question, why are degrees looked upon so favourably? Everybody says they aren't representative of real work that needs doing, or real skills that need to be learned. Yet everybody is looking for a 2:1 graduate or better. If true, those three years, if spent in a job instead, would net you 6x better skills than you'd gain by completing the degree course
Cheers anyhow.
The degree gives you fundamentals that you don't cover when working. Significantly its a filter by HR and agencies to to screen candidates.
Increasingly you have to do coding tests if you get to interview.
https://www.quora.com/What-algorith...asked-at-an-Amazon-Microsoft-Google-interview
Much of this seems like stuff you do in college but I personally wouldn't do that much of my day to day work. So I wouldn't get past these requirements regardless of my experience. I work alongside a very experience contractor and he would cruise through all of this. Yet while he might advise me on coding, I would advise him on good business practice and solutions, because I would have wider practical experience.
Increasingly you have to do coding tests if you get to interview.
https://www.quora.com/What-algorith...asked-at-an-Amazon-Microsoft-Google-interview
Much of this seems like stuff you do in college but I personally wouldn't do that much of my day to day work. So I wouldn't get past these requirements regardless of my experience. I work alongside a very experience contractor and he would cruise through all of this. Yet while he might advise me on coding, I would advise him on good business practice and solutions, because I would have wider practical experience.
Which begs the question, why are degrees looked upon so favourably? Everybody says they aren't representative of real work that needs doing, or real skills that need to be learned. Yet everybody is looking for a 2:1 graduate or better. If true, those three years, if spent in a job instead, would net you 6x better skills than you'd gain by completing the degree course
Cheers anyhow.
A degree should NOT be about acquiring specific technical skills - whatever tech you use when you start your degree will be out of date by the end. It's about learning the fundamentals, be that OO, database design or anything else.
The key is that it gives you the tools to KEEP on learning. In development, now more than ever, tech is moving so fast that you have to run at full pelt just to stand still. The softer/learning skills I picked up at University have served me very well. What programming language did I learn at Uni? COBOL. How many lines of COBOL have I written in a job? 0 (technically I did write some - but that was using LINC which is a 4GL which generated COBOL code).
I think that is a bit of an exaggeration, if someone learned to program in Python or C++ say 5 years ago they're not really going to be 'out of date' now. The basics haven't changed and really the sort of projects they would have implemented at university back then would be pretty much identical to now even if some new features have been added to the languages. If anything a lot of companies will be more likely to be behind a bit than universities.
I'm curious to know what you mean, when you say that university gave you the tools to keep on learning?
As I said I've been to uni many years ago, and we basically attended lectures and were told which text books to buy and read. So I can't say that we were given any tools to enable/enhance learning skills. You listened to the lectures and you read the books, and completed whatever exercises you were given. That said, I dropped out in year two, so maybe all the good stuff was in the third year
Soldato
I'm curious to know what you mean, when you say that university gave you the tools to keep on learning?
As I said I've been to uni many years ago, and we basically attended lectures and were told which text books to buy and read. So I can't say that we were given any tools to enable/enhance learning skills. You listened to the lectures and you read the books, and completed whatever exercises you were given. That said, I dropped out in year two, so maybe all the good stuff was in the third year
If it's anything like when I went to college/uni (Computer science) - they teach you not a specific language as such, but to apply yourself to learning what you need to, in any specific language/situation.
I also used top speed modular 2, COBOL, VB nand C++ - however what I learnt was to design the solution first, in a pseudo code, choose the most appropriate language and then convert the pseudo code into the syntax of the language I had chosen.
I.e you may not know what the syntax is off by heart but you don't need too. As long as you understand the basic principles, you can apply that to any else going forward.
I've been at the same company for 16 years and that principal has stood me in good stead.
Maybe a bit
The point is still valid though, it's not about the specific technologies involved - it's about the learning/keeping up to date mindset.I'm curious to know what you mean, when you say that university gave you the tools to keep on learning?
As I said I've been to uni many years ago, and we basically attended lectures and were told which text books to buy and read. So I can't say that we were given any tools to enable/enhance learning skills. You listened to the lectures and you read the books, and completed whatever exercises you were given. That said, I dropped out in year two, so maybe all the good stuff was in the third year
That doesn't sound like a very good course/university then.
1. Attend lectures - that's where the source material is given out and the concepts laid down.
2. Attend tutorials - this is where the benefit comes, in smaller groups you break down and analyse the source material - you question the concepts, you start acquiring the skills to help you analyse what you are looking at, and sometimes improve it. You know what to read and where to go for the latest thinking in certain areas - this USED to be things like Journals (I graduated in '96), but these days it's all on-line and much easier to find and research.
Over 20 years later - I'm still learning and still using the same mindset.
Soldato
- Joined
- 21 Apr 2007
- Posts
- 6,609
I'm now learning C#.
Decided to start with it because I have some things in mind I want to work on. I want to eventually move into the field so i'm now gonna hardcore lessons and see how far I get. So much stuff on internet these days you don't need an institution to teach you. May be bit harder to land a job without piece of paper, but if you can prove skills I guess it's all good.
Decided to start with it because I have some things in mind I want to work on. I want to eventually move into the field so i'm now gonna hardcore lessons and see how far I get. So much stuff on internet these days you don't need an institution to teach you. May be bit harder to land a job without piece of paper, but if you can prove skills I guess it's all good.
Hi all. Thought I'd resurrect this post rather than start a new one along very similar lines.
Long story short... I'm 43, degree-qualified mech engineer, want to change career to what I would most simply describe "programming".
I've read and understood a C "beginner's" book and now I'm halfway through CS50x on edx (Harvard/MIT basic comp science course) which at least one person on here has referred to.
I'm really enjoying everything about the course, learning new stuff all the time, problem-solving, the actual code-writing, debugging, and of course the pleasure of seeing my code working as intended.
I'm facing a similar 'problem' as some previous posters in that I'm wondering how to progress, i.e. how to make myself employable without a degree (financial and time commitments mean studying for a CS degree would be very tricky).
As I think its too early to start job-searching, even for entry-level positions, I'm thinking about these as options. (I am more inclined towards back-end development rather than front-end/apps, etc so I 'm thinking C++/C# or Java after I've learnt a bit more of C.).
1. Further basic training (e.g. more on edx/Udemy; C# training on Microsoft Virtual Academy)
2. Contribute to open-source code (GitHub?)
3. Add my projects to my GitHub page as a portfolio.
Does anyone have experience of the Microsoft Virtual Academy training (aka DevU)? Recommended?
Another possibility is to offer to work for free, in a junior role, in the hope that the knowledge and experience gained either gets me job at the company after a while or at least gives me a head-start on my CV. Anyone got any experience of that, or even heard of it in IT/coding? Would the best bet for this to be to emailshot as many potential employers in my area as possible?
Sorry for such a long first post (!) but any advice would be very gratefully received. Thanks!
Jez.
Long story short... I'm 43, degree-qualified mech engineer, want to change career to what I would most simply describe "programming".
I've read and understood a C "beginner's" book and now I'm halfway through CS50x on edx (Harvard/MIT basic comp science course) which at least one person on here has referred to.
I'm really enjoying everything about the course, learning new stuff all the time, problem-solving, the actual code-writing, debugging, and of course the pleasure of seeing my code working as intended.
I'm facing a similar 'problem' as some previous posters in that I'm wondering how to progress, i.e. how to make myself employable without a degree (financial and time commitments mean studying for a CS degree would be very tricky).
As I think its too early to start job-searching, even for entry-level positions, I'm thinking about these as options. (I am more inclined towards back-end development rather than front-end/apps, etc so I 'm thinking C++/C# or Java after I've learnt a bit more of C.).
1. Further basic training (e.g. more on edx/Udemy; C# training on Microsoft Virtual Academy)
2. Contribute to open-source code (GitHub?)
3. Add my projects to my GitHub page as a portfolio.
Does anyone have experience of the Microsoft Virtual Academy training (aka DevU)? Recommended?
Another possibility is to offer to work for free, in a junior role, in the hope that the knowledge and experience gained either gets me job at the company after a while or at least gives me a head-start on my CV. Anyone got any experience of that, or even heard of it in IT/coding? Would the best bet for this to be to emailshot as many potential employers in my area as possible?
Sorry for such a long first post (!) but any advice would be very gratefully received. Thanks!
Jez.
no experience of Microsoft Virtual Academy but as far as online courses are concerned then these are quite decent and are perhaps a bit more academic/rigorous than the typical MOOCs
https://see.stanford.edu/Course
might be worth taking a look at udacity.com too - they offer some nano degree programs and plenty of practical courses:
https://www.udacity.com
re: working for free - that is dubious (and potentially illegal for an employer to consider unless for less than 2 weeks or as part of university coursework). Working on open source projects in your own time is possible though
https://see.stanford.edu/Course
might be worth taking a look at udacity.com too - they offer some nano degree programs and plenty of practical courses:
https://www.udacity.com
re: working for free - that is dubious (and potentially illegal for an employer to consider unless for less than 2 weeks or as part of university coursework). Working on open source projects in your own time is possible though
Your problem coming to the industry late is that companies willing to take on people with zero to little practical programming experience will only be filling junior/graduate level roles. Don't know what you're earning as a mechanical engineer but I imagine that is going to be one hell of a pay cut. Also, you're going to be at a big disadvantage as the young kids are a more appealing 'malleable' hire.
With that in mind you're really going to need to have your own projects up on github. Not just contributions to something, actually make something start to finish and show that you know how to design good software and have the language specific skills.
With that in mind you're really going to need to have your own projects up on github. Not just contributions to something, actually make something start to finish and show that you know how to design good software and have the language specific skills.
I crossed over from mech eng to software eng. There's a lot of similarities. Success in both is mostly a function of how well the spec maps onto customer expectations and how diligently said spec is implemented. The notation and terminology differ, e.g. "systems engineering" corresponds pretty directly to "object orientation".
Rather than work for free, I'd suggest looking for companies at the intersection of the fields. CAD software would be ideal. I did numerical modelling of mechanical systems as an interim role.
Software is good. A cycle time of seconds instead of decades and near zero manufacture and distribution cost. Magic
I think that's the biggest hurdle.
FoxEye - I know this is an old post now and you may have since moved on and got the dev job you are looking for. But if not, the first thing I would do is email/Skype/chat with the team leader of the dev team and tell him/her that you are interested in getting into development. My workplace is always keen to take people from the internal support teams into junior dev roles since they already have a good knowledge of the systems they will be working on and they can usually demonstrate good problem solving skills (and it's cheaper than placing external candidates!).
Speak with the team lead or manager and ask what you would need to do to move into development. You may be surprised at how much help you get if you demonstrate the correct behaviours for the job, and if you play it right they'll have you in mind when they open up a new junior dev position.