I think it's broke

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:05

Hi there,

Only a few posts I know but i thought I would share my story.

I decided tonight that putting my car from gear 3 into 2 was a good idea!

Was going down a hill doing around 70-80 in 3rd, went for 4th and hit 2nd.... dunno how because normally it dosn't go down into lower gear easy but this went in and now the engine dosn't want to work...lol

Just wondering if any one on here might know what might have gone. It turns over....sort of, it feels like there is no compresion but I dunno. I am getting it towed later today and am going to begin striping the engine down, just wondering if any one could suggest somewhere to start.

Thanks, Doug.

ajgoodfellow · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:07

I don't know much but I'd imagine that that would break the gearbox but the engine should be OK? I'd have thought the rev limiter might kick in

Someone more knowledgeable should be along shortly though!

Lashout_UK · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:09

Rev limiters don't stop you buzzing the engine from lifting a wheel or shifting into the wrong gear, unfortunately

When you say turn over do you mean on the key? You might have broken the cambelt or chain, have a gander under your belt cover (if you've got one) or under your fillercap

What's the car?

wolseley · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:14

The main limiting factor as to how high your engine can rev in the correct manner, is how quickly the valves can close. They are held shut with a spring, are pushed open against this spring and then the spring shuts them again. There is a limit to how fast they can move from open to shut. If you over rev the engine then the piston can come up to the top of the bore before the valve has shut and hit it (except in 'non-interference' engines).

Your pistons may have hit the values and bent them. If this happens then they will not be able to close properly and you will lose compression.

This may be the problem. It could also be many other things, but I would bet on this one first.

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:18

Sorry forgot to give car

Car is a Rover 214.... not the best of cars i know but i love it

THe car turns over on the key but really quickly like there is no compression, it also turns over on bump but again is hard for like one stroke then really move really quickly.

I think that the rev's where way above the limit (limit 7000 aprox....I saw needle below 8000 :eek:

) I know a bit about cars and engines so im going to give taking apart the engine later today.

Thanks, Doug.

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:21

If it is just bent valves then that is a lifesaver! Would it not have damaged the piston though?

Thanks Wolseley, you have given me hope! (I have been thinking like big-end snapped, crankshaft gone into about 548759037 pieces or just something worse!!)

Thanks, Doug.

wolseley · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:28

Dougiebabe2003 said:
If it is just bent valves then that is a lifesaver! Would it not have damaged the piston though?

Thanks Wolseley, you have given me hope! (I have been thinking like big-end snapped, crankshaft gone into about 548759037 pieces or just something worse!!)

Thanks, Doug.

Well, it could be something a lot worse, and yes even if it is bent valves then it may have damaged the pistons too.

I have had a few bent valves before (classic car witha week oil pump and spiritted driving). The fact that you say the car seems to have trouble with the first turn, but then spins up freely also backs this up (in my experience). If you have a slightly bent valve, it will probably return to the correct closed position under the pull of the spring, but very slowly as it will not be a smooth fit through the valve guide. So, when you try to start it, the valve will be closed and the cam (oh cam on 214 I think) will have to push quite hard to open it, but it will then stay stuck open allowing the engine to spin freely.

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:37

That's cool, thanks for your help.

I will be getting a Haynes manual today and that will be the first place I will look. I must ask, I have never taken apart a car engine before (most other things just not the head etc)

How hard would anyone say it is and would a novice DIYer with SOME tools to take it apart? I understand have to line up timings etc but just an overall hardness and the sort of tools needed.

(can buy more tools though, do actully want to have the tools so I can do things to the car again + mates cars)

Thanks again, Doug.

tom_nieto · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:41

OMGWTF it's a Rover, must be HGF!!!11... sorry had to be done before everyone else did

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 01:45

LOL!

I was waiting for it! Funily enough the first thing that I thought of was HG has blown!

Something else I have just thought of is ONCE when it was turning over it went POOF. It wasn;t quite a bang it was more of a POOF....can't explain but i guess it means it's doing something!

Mickey_D · 29 Mar 2006 at 08:47

Sounds like bent valves. The "POOF" was the fuel/air mixture being ignited and coming back out the intake again (or forced down the exhuast).

Don't keep trying to start it. Air flow mass sensors don't take kindly to backfires. And they are fairly expensive.

As far as difficulty of the job, I would say there is only one job harder to do on an OHV engine, and that is a lower end rebuild. It is quite extensive. Especially if you're having to pull valves and replace guides and seals.

It's certainly not going to be cheap. While you have the head off I would definately have it skimmed since the engines are prone to head gasket problems anyways. Remember to replace your head bolts. Most modern engines the head bolts are single-use ONLY items.

Also while you're there and have everything apart for the job, might as well do the water pump and cambelt tensioners.

As far as tools go, not sure what the head bolts for your particular engine are, but some are socket head cap screws, which means you need a monster Allen Wrench to remove them. Some other tools that are handy and make the job SO much easier are a complete set of GOOD quality deep-welled sockets (preferably 6 pt), a pair of GOOD quality ratchets in 3/8" and 1/2" drive, a superior to excellent quality set of Phillips and standard screwdrivers, good quality pliers both regular and needle nose, and a triple set of Vise-grips (I believe you folks call them mole grips). There are of course specialty tools like a torque wrench that you can sometimes rent, but quite often the pruchase of them is only slightly higher than the rental price.

Of course the standard drain pails and funnels are a must. Don't forget you're going to have to change the oil and filter afterwards as junk WILL fall down the block passages while you're working. There's just no way around it......

Good luck with it. It's not an impossible job to do, you just have to think like an automotive engineer (in other words, like a well trained chimpanzee that has never FIXED a car, just designed them).

Oh, just thought of the most important thing to have - absolute MOUNTAINS of patience. DO NOT get in a hurry. As a very wise man once said : "The only thing you make in a hurry is LOTS of mistakes!!" And mistakes with the head off your engine can get VERY expensive VERY quickly!!

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 18:46

Well, the car is now back on my drive.

I have had the top cover off just to see if there was anything I could see. All looks well under there but taking off the head is when I reckon I will see horrible things :rolleyes:

Will be taking off inlet manifold tomorrow and will try and begin taking the cambelt etc off but it requires the engine mount off and then the engine lowered, highered etc to get to places... Anyone know how much an engine stand/crane is these days and how hard it is to get the engine out?

Thanks, Doug.

Lopéz · 29 Mar 2006 at 18:54

Are you sure it isn't the cambelt? If it spins quicker than usual when trying to start but won't ever fire then snapped cambelt would be my first suspicion.

Take the cover off and have a look.

Enfield · 29 Mar 2006 at 19:04

I've done one better and put a car into 1st at 60Mph rather than 3rd, whoops. Still worked fine though.

Perhaps you bent a valve or something?

Dougiebabe2003 · 29 Mar 2006 at 19:35

The first thing I checked was the cambelt and it is all fine....a little slack but fine. Also I checked the cam sprockets and they still seem like they are lined up.
I think and hope it is a bent valve(s) because that is the next cheapest thing!

Any more help would be great though!

Thanks again, Doug.

tb2000 · 29 Mar 2006 at 20:00

Enfield said:
I've done one better and put a car into 1st at 60Mph rather than 3rd, whoops. Still worked fine though.

Perhaps you bent a valve or something?

I've done one better than that! In my 2.0 Sierra Sapphire (SOHC) years ago, I was going to go from 5th to 3rd and somehow got it in 1st (thought it was a bit crunchy)! There was a split second of far too many revs before I realised what i'd done. Luckily I pulled it straight back out of gear, and the engine was fine. :eek:

To the OP, sounds like bent valves to me. If your belt is fine, the timing is what is the most likely thing to look at next. The belt could've slipped a tooth or two, so this is the first thing to check before you take the head off. You'll be lining up the timing to take off the head anyway so it's best to do this first.

If it is indeed bent valves, you can buy the valves fairly cheaply, however the removing and refitting of them isn't quite so simple as the Rover head has deep valve passages which quite a few standard valve spring compressors are no good for. It's just the taking out of the colletts (sp?) which is tricky!

Sputnik II · 29 Mar 2006 at 20:04

Dougiebabe2003 said:
The first thing I checked was the cambelt and it is all fine....a little slack but fine. Also I checked the cam sprockets and they still seem like they are lined up.

A slack cambelt is far from fine. Take the cambelt cover right off and check for missing teeth, You should just be able to twist the belt 90 degrees on the longest run if the tension is correct (this is a fast tension test and not 100% accurate)

tb2000 · 29 Mar 2006 at 20:06

Sputnik II said:
A slack cambelt is far from fine. Take the cambelt cover right off and check for missing teeth, You should just be able to twist the belt 90 degrees on the longest run if the tension is correct (this is a fast tension test and not 100% accurate)

This is true, and if the belt has a little too much slack then the extra fast over rev may have made it skip or lose a tooth or two.

neil-ste · 29 Mar 2006 at 20:14

Lopéz said:
Are you sure it isn't the cambelt? If it spins quicker than usual when trying to start but won't ever fire then snapped cambelt would be my first suspicion.

Take the cover off and have a look.

That's exactly what I was thinking, snapped or slipped.

I've done 5th -> 2nd at 80 mph when I had my 106. It just slammed into the rev limiter, the clutch slipped and I nearly went through the windscreen. It was probably the most horrific noise i've ever heard a car make

Zefan · 29 Mar 2006 at 20:15

Dougiebabe2003 said:
I think it's broke

LMAO