Ian McNaughton goes out against The Way it's Meant to be Played

[Final8y]

AMD prides itself on supporting open standards and our goal is to advance PC gaming regardless whether people purchase our products.

Unfortunately, not everyone shares our philosophy. Nvidia has recently sampled some newly released The Way it is Meant to be Played titles, including Batman: Arkham Asylum, to press in hopes that they would use these titles to benchmark against the HD Radeon 5870 and 5850. There are some known issues with these proprietary TWIMTBP titles.

Batman: Arkham Asylum
In this game, Nvidia has an in-game option for AA, whereas, gamers using ATI Graphics Cards are required to force AA on in the Catalyst Control Center.

The advantage of in-game AA is that the engine can run AA selectively on scenes whereas Forced AA in CCC is required to use brute force to apply AA on every scene and object, requiring much more work.

Additionally, the in-game AA option was removed when ATI cards are detected. We were able to confirm this by changing the ids of ATI graphics cards in the Batman demo. By tricking the application, we were able to get in-game AA option where our performance was significantly enhanced. This option is not available for the retail game as there is a secure rom.

To fairly benchmark this application, please turn off all AA to assess the performance of the respective graphics cards. Also, we should point out that even at 2560×1600 with 4x AA and 8x AF we are still in the highly playable territory …

Need for Speed: Shift
In another TWIMTBP title, we submitted a list of issues that we discovered during the games’ development. These issues include inefficiencies in how the game engine worked with our hardware in addition to real bugs, etc.. We have sent this list to the developer for review. .

Unfortunately you will be unable to get a fair playing experience with our hardware until the developer releases a patch to address and fix our reported issues.

Resident Evil 5
AMD was unable to receive builds of this game early enough to get a chance to test and address any open issues. We will work with the developer to test and adjust any compatibility or performance issues that we encounter.

About NFS:Shift
The game uses PhysX to compute entire movements in game scene. So if You don’t have gpu physx, it falls down to cpu physx via nvidia physx engine again, not with own implementation, so nvdia would never optimize physx on cpu. ea is guilty - for not usin own physics computation on cpu.

http://blogs.amd.com/play/2009/09/1...ing-you-want-to-know-and-why-you-should-care/

 

[Final8y]

Where was I trying to explain what they were doing? your so convinced of what I would say your getting ahead of yourself...

I think locking out performance advantages on other hardware deplorable - I just haven't seen it for myself yet - and the other example with physx being locked to one CPU core when using non-GPU physics doesn't seem to be true - when I tested it for myself there was deffinate increase of load on 2 cores and a smaller increase on one other core.

I & others have posted links to reviews sites & users who that show that phyisx in certain games running on one core & but as usual you have no links to backup your comments with the games in question.

 

[Final8y]

Surely Nvidia are just getting something back from investing in game development? I don't get why ATI don't do the same. It's all very well taking the moral high ground but it's not really going to solve the problem.

I do think that it's a mistake for him to openly criticise the games developers. If they want to get them onside, but don't want to invest in an ATI version of TWIMTBP, then openly criticising them isn't the way to go.

Disabling in game AA when an ATI card is present is poor though.

ATI don't want to invest in an ATI version of TWIMTBP because 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Its the TWIMTBP that's doing the things like Disabling in game AA when an ATI card is present. And you want ATI todo the same & it will get to the point that a TWIMTBP game wont work at all on ATI cards & ATI TWIMTBP version game wont work on NV cards & then they will want exclusives of course & you will need 2 PCs to play them with a gfx card from each or swap the cards out every time you change from an NV game to an ATI game & viceversa.

 

[Final8y]

I'm not talking about using that kind of tactic. I'm talking about investing in game developers so that there's more top games out there that don't do that kind of thing.

That's like you going to MacDonald & having to pay an extra fee to ensure that your BidMac has not been phlegmd in.

 

[Final8y]

http://aten-hosted.com/images/batmanaa.jpg

Can't get any comparison pics which show it better atm coz my check point is a boss fight... don't think he'll leave me alone while I take some screenshots

Where is the source to where that pic came from, because it has to be independent source, other tasks can be loading the CPU.

 

[Final8y]

Whats the problem here. Really I mean Nvidia have invested a lot of time/money into their TWIMTBP program for quite a few years now and obviously they will optimise or configure for their cards only as thats why they invested the money in the first place DOH!!!

ATI really need to stop bitching and do the same but wait this is the same ATI who despite making the best graphics hardware for the last year refuse to put as much effort as Nvidia into their drivers let alone a dedicated game dev sponsor program in return for advertising.

If ATI had a bigger,better,faster drivers team with the same resource as Nvidia they would dominate and Nvidia would be in danger of going out of business. I had to reluctantly get rid of my ATI cards last year as I got so fed up with all the driver related issues some took months to get fixed even on recent games so I just ditched them and went for inferior Nvidia hardware just to have less hassle and spend more time gaming instead of waiting for ATI hotfixes (bluray playback was particular bad as ATI update their HDCP keys every month yet Nvidia give you a 2-3 month certificate).

Why on earth the people who run ATI cannot see this is a real eye opener as they have the hardware to dominate their rival but not the drivers/dev support

There is a difference to paying for support & paying for sabotage.

 

[Final8y]

I love ATI's big contribution... tessellation... which in most cases you have to slow the game down and turn on wireframe to notice the difference... a feature almost no one has been asking for...



I don't deny it has some benefits and I'm quite a fan of polygon smoothing myself - but its hardly a ground breaking feature or something we couldn't move forward without.

I noticed the difference & yet you tell people to look closely to how things move with physx because they don't notice physx moving things any better than other methods.

 

[Final8y]

The only people who really lose out by all this are the consumers.

 

[Final8y]

Oh please I've got nothing better to do than fake up screen shots ... whos to say the people making the alternative claim aren't faking it???


EDIT: Oh and the blacked out areas aren't extra tasks or anything sinister - I'd be more subtle than that if I was faking it up - just covering things that are covered by NDA.

Because the review sites have more creditability & i have ready many users saying the same thing even before batman.

Yours could be noting more than load balancing which depends on the CPU & OS.

Intel users were posting that TF2 was only using one core before the multi thread upgrade but on my phenom setup TF2 was load balancing between the cores.

 

[Final8y]

I don't agree with Intel's tactics, but I still bought an i7. Their underhandedness did nothing to affect me anyway, it only shafted the people who buy pre-built PC's from the large vendors. In fact, it may have helped me. By restricting the market to intel's CPU's only, AMD would be forced to lower prices to compete, and Intel would retaliate, meaning it could be BETTER for us who build.

I also don't agree with nvidia's strategy, but I still bought an nvidia card. Although to be honest, if BFG did ATI cards, I'd have bought a 4870.

Sound reasons for going with what you have & all without making silly excuses for the companies involved.
Intel seems to have cleaned up there act for some time now.

 

[Final8y]

NV should be tring to be getting one over the competition ATI ATM with better hardware & features at the hardware & driver level that don't impact the standard DX & expected functions of the games on other hardware.

Competing at this level does not hurt the consumer or require the consumers involvement in its implementation.
This is standard business practice.

Instead they are trying to get one over ATI by blackmailing the consumer through screwing with 3rd party games.

People who think that only the continued underhanded ways at any & all levels of the chain is the only way todo business most likely do not own there own company.

Business allows for allot of leeway in what is acceptable right & wrong but i feel NV has pushed it to the limit & are on the verge of going over..

 

[Final8y]

AMD has put money (work, code, it's the same) to the developers of DIRT 2 to use DX11 code. So they make the same that NVIDIA with Batman AA: the DX11 features (or some of them) can't be enabled in NVIDIA hardware (for when they have some).

Even if that was possible (I don't think AMD is in position to do something like that, as is the case of NVIDIA)... wow, GREAT. Now we have fixed everything. Now I not only can't use AA in B:AA if I have ATi, but I can't use DX11 in DIRT2 if I have NVIDIA. Excelent!. My situation as a consumer has improved hugely since AMD "has improved their relationships with developers to the degree of NVIDIA".

The problem here is not the relationships with the developers, but what kind of things should/shouldn't be allowed to be done with those relationships.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=4037486&postcount=105

 

[Final8y]

http://game.amd.com/us-en/play_games.aspx

I wonder how many features has AMD/ATI got taken out of those for NV users.

I suspect none.

 

[Final8y]

That quote was hypothetical, ATI haven't actual vendor-restricted the code in Dirt2.

Ever since nVidia restricted the use of physx on multi vendor setups (I used to have a 4870 alongside a 9500GT for physx - this no longer works, even though it can), I've decided my next card will most definately not be an nVidia one. It's utterly disgusting behaviour - I purchased their card, but I'm not allowed to use it as I also own a competitors card?

Yes they have not restricted the code in Dirt2.
I was making a hypothetical point in posting it here that if both parties played that same game at that level then we would be doomed & another thorn in the side for PC gaming over consoles, like the PC needs any help with gamers going in that direction.

AMD has paid 1 million to codemasters for DX11 in Dirt2. And DX11 is not even owned by AMD, NV DX11 cards when they get here will not be restricted.

 

[Final8y]

Whilst it's obviously just a move from AMD's perspective to get the short term sales of their Radeon 5000 parts up by making DirectX 11 more important, it will at least eventually benefit everyone once they also get the hardware out. Moreover, DirectX 11 benefits people who even just have DirectX 10 graphics hardware, including those who bought from Nvidia, S3, Intel, whoever. Sure it's not a saintly move by ATi, they're doing it to benefit, but it's not got the long term effect of segregating the market because eventually all vendors will support DirectX 11.

That,s what basic marketing is about & if NV was first out with a DX11 card & was doing the same i would be happy as everyone would benefit as you say in the long run as the DX standard is for everyone & nether ATI or NV can restrict on who can have DX.

 

[Final8y]

The name calling really has to stop.

If you cant make a reasoned comment against what you have read then don't comment at all. as fanboy & Nvidiot.. or what ever is starting to get out of hand & being used in place of reasoned debate as a way of trying try to win an argument with no real answer at all.


At the end of the day its upto the individual whether ethics matters in there buying decisions.
But that does not mean that we should not discus it or make people aware or it or like it..

 

[Final8y]

Nvidia are putting DX11 down, they're trying to act like it doesn't matter..

That does not really matter as that is marketing talk, silly as it is tho in this case.

 

[Final8y]

I'm sorry, but unless you're not aware, he doesn't respond to anything reasonably....

I'm quite aware & sometimes give a silly response to some of his comments but i don't use blatant name calling.

Of course it matters. Nvidia are essentially the bigger GPU company and hold the larger share of the market, how exactly is PC gaming going to expand when Nvidia play down any innovation and advances?

That would be innovation and advances that are not exclusive to themselves.

 

[Final8y]

Is DX11 an advance yes or no? Yes. Are Nvidia playing it down? Yes..

Exclusive or not, ATI are the only ones with a DX11 card at present, Nvidia (The larger company) are trying to say DX11 won't matter, what do you think games developers will do? Flood into make DX11 games, or focus on DX10? DX10.

That is a marketing comment aimed at the consumer to buy a an existing DX 10 card & hopefully a NV card or wait for the NV DX 11 card if you really need a Dx11 card.

Developers can see right through what NV has said with that statement.

Unlike DX10 that showed a performance hit from the off. so far DX11 has shown gains when doing no more than what was being done in lower DX versions.

 

[Final8y]

I doubt that the EU have the nous to see what if anything is happening (apart from likely poor coding on Rocksteady Studios part or maybe they were in a rush wouldn't be the 1st time a game has gone out far from ready)



You forget the millions that Nvidia spend on research (both real tech research and re-branding) even the TWIMTBP program costs an obscene amount of money for what comes out at the other end

A story from August (presumably about all the faulty laptop chips)



Personally I think people have to stop looking at this as some sort of fight between good and evil (a very American thing to do) and understand that Nvidia are not the axis of evil and ATI the good'ol US of A



Think Nvidia are trying to gain a much bigger share of pie than just gamers and DX11 which is why they have been pushing CUDA so hard as they have/are optimizing hardware for general purpose calculations rather than specializing on gaming like ATI

The word the best or worst of 2 Evils is how most people look at companies as everyone knows what the bottom line is.

Indeed Nvidia are trying to gain a much bigger share of pie than just gamers and DX11, but no point in NV playing down DX11 to gamers in favour of non gaming focused feature even tho some parts of it could find its way into gaming.