If this is true..... (passport control/burkha thread)

[Visage]

Why are people getting so irate?

This man was an immigrant who committed a crime, and has now been (effectively) deported.

Isnt that what people want? Isnt that what people are always demanding, that we send these people back to where they came from?

 

[starscream]

Raging paranoia fuelled by a sensationalist media, coupled with simplistic thinking that laps up such stories without any critical analysis?

You're not suggesting the right wing press could be responsible for making their readers paranoid about their actions being construed as being racist?

I thought that was the PC brigades job

 

[Visage]

You're not suggesting the right wing press could be responsible for making their readers paranoid about their actions being construed as being racist?

I thought that was the PC brigades job

Maybe the PC brigade actually run the right wing press? Perhaps its an elaborate double bluff?

Unfortunately, until people are able to specify who is a member of the PC brigade, we'll never know, and they'll remain a convenient bogeyman....

 

[starscream]

1) Regulations can be seen as racist, even if applied to all there is also the concept of indirect disadvantage. Many claims of racism, most often in the past decade, can be irrational or unfounded

But there is an obvious distinction.

If a security attendent stops every person who is wearing clothing associated with a certain culture or relgion whilst letting everyone else though, then they are discriminating on that basis. There would therefore be just cause to make a claim of racist behaviour.

If a security attendent is given the passport of a person from any religion or culture that is wearing garments obscuring their identity, they can be asked to remove the clothing for the purpose of the identity check. There can be no claim of racism as the attendent is merely ensuring that the rules that are applicable to everyone are enforced.

 

[VIRII]

Why would they be concerned of being accused of racism? Regulations are that a person must be identifiable to their passport photo. To fulfill that requirement, a Muslim, in this example, would have to remove a veil while being identified. Just as a non-Muslim wearing clothing obscuring their identity would also have to.

If you accept that they are not going to be accused of racism, why should they be concerned about it?

Because muslims have used any excuse under the sun in recent years to claim that they are discriminated against.

 

[VIRII]

Why are people getting so irate?

This man was an immigrant who committed a crime, and has now been (effectively) deported.

Isnt that what people want? Isnt that what people are always demanding, that we send these people back to where they came from?

Sure, after they do their time in jail and face trial.

 

[VIRII]

You're not suggesting the right wing press could be responsible for making their readers paranoid about their actions being construed as being racist?

I thought that was the PC brigades job

It is one thing to try and be clever with sarcastic snippets, it is another to actually be clever and pull it off.

Incidentally as banks have signs up that state that people are required to remove crash helmets before entering the bank why not have the same requirements for veils at airports..... you seem to have avoided answering that.....

 

[starscream]

It is one thing to try and be clever with sarcastic snippets, it is another to actually be clever and pull it off.

Why thank you

Incidentally as banks have signs up that state that people are required to remove crash helmets before entering the bank why not have the same requirements for veils at airports..... you seem to have avoided answering that.....

As far as I'm aware, there have not been previous incidents of women in veils robbing banks and using the veil to obscure their identity. Therefore, it doesn't seem very sensible for a bank to have such a policy.

 

[cleanbluesky]

But there is an obvious distinction.

If a security attendent stops every person who is wearing clothing associated with a certain culture or relgion whilst letting everyone else though, then they are discriminating on that basis. There would therefore be just cause to make a claim of racist behaviour.

RELIGION != RACE

Why is it so many people of a certain attitude are making this mistake repetitively?

 

[cleanbluesky]

As far as I'm aware, there have not been previous incidents of women in veils robbing banks and using the veil to obscure their identity. Therefore, it doesn't seem very sensible for a bank to have such a policy.

It is very common for criminals to obscure their identity, I think that banks shouldn't let certain method of obscuring identity have 'special priveledge'

 

[Dolph]

It is very common for criminals to obscure their identity, I think that banks shouldn't let certain method of obscuring identity have 'special priveledge'

I agree, in situations such as a bank, or indeed a passport check-in, everyone should be treated equally.

 

[cleanbluesky]

To resolve this issue doesn't require a ban though, an outright ban on anything should only be considered as the last option, not the first, again at least in my view. I cannot support a ban when getting checkin people to do their job properly would have prevented this anyway. A ban is a knee-jerk reaction to such a thing, and totally unnecessary and unwarranted.

I find this attitude very well reasoned and I think I agree. I wasn't sure how I felt about an outright ban.
On one hand it would send a clear message to Islamists that the negative parts of their attitudes are not to be tolerated but I would also agree that discouragement would likely be more effective than an outright ban.

I also think that the government needs to address the perception that minority groups are getting special treatment, and that the wishes of minority groups are more likely to be pandered to than those of majority

 

[pyro]

I agree, in situations such as a bank, or indeed a passport check-in, everyone should be treated equally.

That's where I have a problem with the veil.
This is a free country, if you want to be dressed so that nobody can actually see who you are, then fine, although I do find it rather silly.
God didn't make women beautiful so they can hide themselfs, and if a man can't stop himself from being allover a woman, just because she's not fully covered, he has issues.
Of course one's view of God's will, or even His very existance can be greatly different than another's, I am not talking about religion here, I am talking about common sence.
When I walk out of my house and happen to see my next door neighbour I always greet him, make some small talk, just be polite.
Of course I have never had any such dialogue with his wife(?) who I have never seen without a veil. In the few occasions I'v seen her, I have greeted her, but got no responce.
I'd rather be able to see her face, and actually talk to her, but it is her personal choise not to interact with her neighbours.
Fine, even when you walk down the street wearing the veil, but how come it's ok for you to be in the city centre, in the shops, the bank, without showing your face?
What if I was dressed in fatigues, goves, proper boots et all, along with a balaclava and a pair of shades? Then you wouldn't even be able to see my eyes. How much time before I get arrested? And what if I walked into a bank like that? I would expect the alarm to go off the moment I walk in.
Of course, vailed women do not rob banks, they don't shop lift, they are not a nuisance to society like some chavs are.
On the other hand there have been a plethora of bank robbers that are dressed in camo and are hiding their face, not to mention that if you see a guy walking down the street dressed like that, you would probably feel intimidated.
I would too, but it's not the sex, nor the reason they dress in a certain unorthodox way, it's the principle. Why is it ok for her (if it is a female to begin with) to hide her face when someone else could even face prosecution for hiding his?
I am not for a ban on the veil, that would probably make some of these women stay home and never go out again, I just want equality.

 

[starscream]

It is very common for criminals to obscure their identity, I think that banks shouldn't let certain method of obscuring identity have 'special priveledge'

Well it is a banks security policy that would be the determining factor. If they believe that women wearing the veil could pose enough of a risk to make it part of their policy for them to be removed, I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that.

 

[Chronos-X]

RELIGION != RACE

Why is it so many people of a certain attitude are making this mistake repetitively?

Racism in the 21st century (and before) has a definition that is broader than its original. You know this and refuse to read between the lines.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Racism in the 21st century (and before) has a definition that is broader than its original. You know this and refuse to read between the lines.

On here it does, in reality it usually it means discriminating on the basis of race whereas it seems to mean "I disagree with that" in the way it is used on here

 

[starscream]

I also think that the government needs to address the perception that minority groups are getting special treatment, and that the wishes of minority groups are more likely to be pandered to than those of majority

Indeed. It is a very difficult task though. The popular press have far more influence and power in shaping public opinion, especially when the perception of that viewpoint sells so many papers.

 

[Chronos-X]

On here it does, in reality it usually it means discriminating on the basis of race whereas it seems to mean "I disagree with that" in the way it is used on here

In my mind, its a word that encompasses

• Xenophobes
• Irrational discrimination on religion
• Straight-up racists

Hope this clarifies the situation. Others may have a different steer on things but that's mine.

 

[cleanbluesky]

In my mind, its a word that encompasses

• Xenophobes
• Irrational discrimination on religion
• Straight-up racists

Hope this clarifies the situation. Others may have a different steer on things but that's mine.

Funny, you have admitted in the past that you knew the proper (as in socially accepted) definition of the word and were disappointed that you couldn't use it on 'technicality'.

I guess you wish for the first two definitions (bear in mind the first is quite nebulous if examined) to be compounded, simplified and generalised into a word and concept that has a generally bad reputation now...
Personally I think you should do the groundwork and explain your ****ing opinions using accepted terms from the English language, rather than dribbling "Send them back" at every oportunity and claiming some strange right to accuse people of racism who aren't being racist.

 

[VIRII]

As far as I'm aware, there have not been previous incidents of women in veils robbing banks and using the veil to obscure their identity. Therefore, it doesn't seem very sensible for a bank to have such a policy.

Why not? It is a preventative measure
And as this case proves the veil can be used to hide an identity therefore I see no reason not to insist that veils are not worn in airports.