Instead of slating Nvidia...

[JediFragger]

Bhavv, cut out the inflamitory crap or risk a suspension. Keep it civil

 

[Duran]

Nope nope nope.
very bad example.

Nintendo own the platform.
MS owns some games companies.

NV does not own the PC platform or own any games companies nether are they games publishers.

nope nope what? thats thats why i said they fund developers way more. they even own ips and pc hardware developers need to take note of that, they advertise all the games even if they dont own them, they spend millions in press conferences showing games that again they dont own because in the end people will buy their consoles to play them. intel made the first step with project offset by purchasing the ip. while sony, ms and nintendo pay tens of millions for a bit of exclusive content or for a title to be timed exclusive for a couple of months nvidia, amd and intel only go as far as helping to implement a few pointless features.

people already start to realise that there is no point buying new hardware when there is no game to take advantage of it so how about nvidia stops with their physx crap and ati shove their "open" bs up theirs and do something more meaningfull? like funding cutting edge pc exclusives that will make people buy their gpus in order to play them?

nvidia owns the gpu that you bought in order to play games. am i talking to a brick wall?

 

[Lightnix]

Since console manufacturers make most of their money from licensing development kits and rights to games studios and publishers it seems any funding the console manufacturers do give to development came from the developer's own pockets in the first place. In short: keh?

 

[Duran]

Since console manufacturers make most of their money from licensing development kits and rights to games studios and publishers it seems any funding the console manufacturers do give to development came from the developer's own pockets in the first place. In short: keh?

oh yeah sony's gaming division lost 2 billion because they didnt licence enough kits? no they lost that money because ps3 sells like crap and the wii is killing the competition in terms of sales. so no console manufactures do not make most of their money that way so your post is flawed.

 

[el Kuarlos]

Quote:
Originally Posted by James J View Post
Even so, they couldnt slash them to the point of making the speed increases in games, physicsx and the sound options all on 1 card when its similar in price lol. The power issues are offset by good PSU's so those are a none issue to be fair, the temperatures CAN be solved by more efficient cooling which has been proved in the past with a plephora of cards
Forgive me for this being my first post, but I see it like this.

I seem to remember that when the 4870 512 was released its comparative nvidia offering was the gtx260. the 4870 512 was slightly faster and cheaper.
This caused nvidia to respond with the gtx260 216. the 4870 lost slghtly in performance but will always be remember for its value for money although not as much as the 4850. Either way compared to a gtx280, the 4870 was a fine offering for its price/performance. didnt stop it from selling .

470/480 FUTURE Tessellation capabilities if gaming developers use it.
470/480 whilst impressive is just too much for the 40nm process.
similar problems like the 1st amd phenom on 65nm.
With a 2nd revision to maybe 32nm then it can then maybe open up to 16 SMs support, and hopefully will cut the tdp down too
I'm not knocking the architecture of the gf100 it's good, but only if it gets used to its potential. which means future game developers use tessellation etc.

At the moment no matter what heatsink,fan design, improvements you carry out, you cannot simply hide the fact that there is a both an engineering design fault and low success rate with the size of the 500mm2+ die in relation to the tsmc 40 nm process. Ati have been struggling with low yield rates as you well know but the die size is in ati's favour.
and secondly you are forgetting that ati were just about able to make a single slot dual gpu card on the 40nm process, Hence then 5970 even though they were reluctant to make it and did so on scaled down freq's etc. I'd like to see a dual gpu card from nvidia on the current fabrication process.

Of course there will be alternatives cheaper crossfire and sli configs in the future.

If you can agree that in its current form, its too power hungry in full load operation, (despite it may still remain reliable at (90 degrees+ temps).
in comparsion to the ati 5850 5870.
Ok yes it does provide a good performance in gaming,
But that there is more potential in the architecture than can be seen right now, and that it can provide gains in future games by implementing tessellation, but requires a revision to a more suitable process fabrication.
and then theres the main decider the price ! Thats for the buyer to decide, for me its too expensive, but then i feel a 5850 is too expensive too.


I'm not a fanboy, I buy what i feel is the best for the money at the time.
My 4870 although getting on a bit will last me til the next developent of either rv970 or fermi II. I'll skip both ati and nvidia for now. and anyway summers coming up soon.
Last edited by Davedree; 28th Mar 2010 at 07:16.

Duran please consider how you come across in your posts.

Bloke above put in his first post, and I learned something- and he even felt the need to mention he wasn't a 'fanboy' because that seems to be the equivalent of calling someone gay in these threads nowadays.

Every thread I see on gcards seems to be you, roff, raven, or a few other lads wading in and making out not only are you authorities, but you have the right to confront other <supposedly> less knowledgeable people in a way that youtube would frown upon. Above just smacks of 'i wanna be right' grow up please and stop ego-jacking threads and making white noise.

Fancy getting back on point?

Nvidia need a hammering over this, but like the man above said, they will bounce back.

 

[Lightnix]

oh yeah sony's gaming division lost 2 billion because they didnt licence enough kits? no they lost that money because ps3 sells like crap and the wii is killing the competition in terms of sales. so no console manufactures do not make most of their money that way so your post is flawed.

Odd, from what I've been reading they've been losing money on the console hardware, but overall are making that up from software sales and royalties.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/multim...l_Sells_PlayStation_3_at_a_Loss_Analysis.html

Since the introduction of the PlayStation 3 in late 2006, Sony has subsidized the price of every console sold, a deficit the company has made up for with game sales and royalties.

Further reading is actually kind of surprising, in that their latest losses are apparently from their 'lesser', platforms, the PSP and PS2:

http://www.mcvuk.com/news/37436/Strong-profits-at-Sony

PlayStation-specific numbers remained static, however, with the strengthening of the PS3 business offset by losses in both the PS2 and PSP operations.

Oh also, more importantly in the article, the divison of Sony that runs the Playstation business is in fact now making a profit despite still apparently making a loss on the console hardware. Funny that.

 

[Rroff]

in a way that youtube would frown upon.

You have absolutely not seen comments on youtube then

 

[Final8y]

nope nope what? thats thats why i said they fund developers way more. they even own ips and pc hardware developers need to take note of that, they advertise all the games even if they dont own them, they spend millions in press conferences showing games that again they dont own because in the end people will buy their consoles to play them. intel made the first step with project offset by purchasing the ip. while sony, ms and nintendo pay tens of millions for a bit of exclusive content or for a title to be timed exclusive for a couple of months nvidia, amd and intel only go as far as helping to implement a few pointless features.

people already start to realise that there is no point buying new hardware when there is no game to take advantage of it so how about nvidia stops with their physx crap and ati shove their "open" bs up theirs and do something more meaningfull? like funding cutting edge pc exclusives that will make people buy their gpus in order to play them?

nvidia owns the gpu that you bought in order to play games. am i talking to a brick wall?

If hardware makers on the PC platform start doing the same as on the consoles it will end up like the consoles with exclusives that only work on specific PC hardware & not exclusives to the PC in general.
You simply can not apply the closed console model to the open PC platform & you will end up with propriety software & games left right & centre on propriety PC hardware which is incompatible with each others exclusive titles & all the compatibility which we have enjoyed will go right out of the window which there are already signs of with Physx & even now AA only work in game on one makers GPU because they had a hand in it.
What next, Creative helping out in a games sound implementation & sound only works if you have Creative sound hardware.

So your comment about open being BS is null & vold because that's what the PC is & that's exactly why nvidia, amd and intel only go as far as helping to implement a few pointless features as its the games developers job to come up with the ideas & features in games not the hardware makers & the only involvement should be help with implementation when requested that does not block a compatible feature on other compatible hardware if possible.

 

[Kanifee]

Nvidia made there bed in which they are currently in, I like Nvidia but the fact is they treat/treated there customers like idiots for a good while when in reality they arnt, rehash cards and overpriced under competitive alternatives tarnished Nvidia and Ati took advantage though id imagine even Ati didnt realise how lucky there timing would be with he 58XX series.

Give it a year or two and Nvidia will bring stiff competition back to the market but as it stands brand loyalty is what will bring the bulk of there high end fermi sales, i suppose there is nothing wrong with that though most would consider it to not be the most informed decision.
personally i dont think id want to see the market move to a place where Ati dominate for too long, just enough to let the green guys realise they cant slack like they have been is enough, even Ati would take the proverbial yellow stuff if left with the market in there hands!

As for closed Console model being applied to the pc, i could not think of one single thing that could be more detrimental to the pc gaming platform, it goes against exactly the point of Pc gaming..... choice, configurability, Upgrade paths and most of all freedom to do and use what you like to enjoy your games with what ever takes your fancy.
Nvidia franchised games on Nvidia exclusive Mobo/gpu bundles, doesnt bare thinking about.

 

[Random-Rabbit]

sod it .. I'm fed up with poor driver support from ATI for my 5770 which is still causing me problems so I'm gonna buy a 470 ...

I like others don't care who makes the GFX card, I'm not loyal to any brand ..I only care that it works, ticks boxes for features and offers me best performance for budget.

I'm not too fussed about temperature or power consumption.

see I would buy a 5850 instead of a 470 but as my current 5770 is not performing I'd be mad to buy another ati 5xxx card atm

I'm happy I finally have an ati DX11 alternative.

 

[Kanifee]

People over estimated the 5770, what resr do you game at may i ask and what is the rest of your rig, games you play?

 

[Random-Rabbit]

I play wow & COD5 and crysis at 1920x1080 .. the 5770 holds up ok ... also use video/effects editing and CAD software

I have an i7 920 D0 @4.2ghz with 3x2GB tri channel Corsair sticks

It was a new build with the 5770 a few months back as I wanted to keep the cost down .. seeing as it's giving me monster grief I'm now prepared to discard it for an upgrade and I'm not happy buying another ati atm so It looks like a 470 for me.

 

[Kanifee]

Well i can understand where you are coming form but personally if it was me id not look at the 5850 unless crossfiring, id look at the 5870 which is a faster card than the 470 at that res period. but if you are really that put off not much people say can change that though id suggest you bare in mind that the 5770 is a 4 series single gpu card with dx11 bolted on essentially, no amount of driver updates will make it a fast card by today's high end standards, just a shame your experience panned the way it did!

Id say realisticly, bye a 5870, try it for a couple of days and if you don't like it return it under the distance selling act, no harm no foul and if you do find it surprises your expectations then by all the knowledge and news going at the minute you have a better card, but its down to you i suppose just thought id advise.

 

[Random-Rabbit]

Well i can understand where you are coming form but personally if it was me id not look at the 5850 unless crossfiring, id look at the 5870 which is a faster card than the 470 at that res period. but if you are really that put off not much people say can change that though id suggest you bare in mind that the 5770 is a 4 series single gpu card with dx11 bolted on essentially, no amount of driver updates will make it a fast card by today's high end standards, just a shame your experience panned the way it did!

Id say realisticly, bye a 5870, try it for a couple of days and if you don't like it return it under the distance selling act, no harm no foul and if you do find it surprises your expectations then by all the knowledge and news going at the minute you have a better card, but its down to you i suppose just thought id advise.

thanks for that shout, tbh never really done much background into the 5770 I always assumed it was the same GPU structure as the rest of the 5XXX series ... I didn't realise it was essentially a juiced up 4XXX.

I think in that case it's sound advise .. I'll try a 5870 and then just return it if I still have the same compatibility issues and crashes.

Like I said, I don't mind who makes the card only that it works, has DX11 and is good value for money. I wasn't prepared to risk buying another card from the same series but as you said they are more different than I realised.

cheers

 

[D.P.]

All the 58xx are basically juiced up 4xxx series cards architecturally speaking.

 

[Liampope]

I play wow & COD5 and crysis at 1920x1080 .. the 5770 holds up ok ... also use video/effects editing and CAD software

I have an i7 920 D0 @4.2ghz with 3x2GB tri channel Corsair sticks

It was a new build with the 5770 a few months back as I wanted to keep the cost down .. seeing as it's giving me monster grief I'm now prepared to discard it for an upgrade and I'm not happy buying another ati atm so It looks like a 470 for me.

What problems are you having? With respect, most people aren't having problems with ati cards in rigs like that. So chances are either you're doing something wrong or have faulty hardware. Buying a 470 might not make your problems go away.

Liam

 

[Random-Rabbit]

system freezes in adobe products, and web flash based video

the occasional GSOD which is now sometimes an orange screen of death using cat 10.3's

swaped out the card with a m8's nvidia and all was good so I know it's the 5770, I know I should RMA the card but I don't want to be without one while it's sorted so I figured I'll buy an upgrade then sell my 5770 if it's returned back to me ok

 

[rypt]

All the 58xx are basically juiced up 4xxx series cards architecturally speaking.

And yet they are STILL better than Fermi, funny that

 

[James J]

Forgive me for this being my first post, but I see it like this.

I seem to remember that when the 4870 512 was released its comparative nvidia offering was the gtx260. the 4870 512 was slightly faster and cheaper.
This caused nvidia to respond with the gtx260 216. the 4870 lost slghtly in performance but will always be remember for its value for money although not as much as the 4850. Either way compared to a gtx280, the 4870 was a fine offering for its price/performance. didnt stop it from selling .

470/480 FUTURE Tessellation capabilities if gaming developers use it.
470/480 whilst impressive is just too much for the 40nm process.
similar problems like the 1st amd phenom on 65nm.
With a 2nd revision to maybe 32nm then it can then maybe open up to 16 SMs support, and hopefully will cut the tdp down too
I'm not knocking the architecture of the gf100 it's good, but only if it gets used to its potential. which means future game developers use tessellation etc.

At the moment no matter what heatsink,fan design, improvements you carry out, you cannot simply hide the fact that there is a both an engineering design fault and low success rate with the size of the 500mm2+ die in relation to the tsmc 40 nm process. Ati have been struggling with low yield rates as you well know but the die size is in ati's favour.
and secondly you are forgetting that ati were just about able to make a single slot dual gpu card on the 40nm process, Hence then 5970 even though they were reluctant to make it and did so on scaled down freq's etc. I'd like to see a dual gpu card from nvidia on the current fabrication process.

Of course there will be alternatives cheaper crossfire and sli configs in the future.

If you can agree that in its current form, its too power hungry in full load operation, (despite it may still remain reliable at (90 degrees+ temps).
in comparsion to the ati 5850 5870.
Ok yes it does provide a good performance in gaming,
But that there is more potential in the architecture than can be seen right now, and that it can provide gains in future games by implementing tessellation, but requires a revision to a more suitable process fabrication.
and then theres the main decider the price ! Thats for the buyer to decide, for me its too expensive, but then i feel a 5850 is too expensive too.


I'm not a fanboy, I buy what i feel is the best for the money at the time.
My 4870 although getting on a bit will last me til the next developent of either rv970 or fermi II. I'll skip both ati and nvidia for now. and anyway summers coming up soon.

Sorry for the late reply and welcome to the forums mate!

I understand what your saying perfectly but we all have to remember that the 400 series WILL get performance increases from future driver updates which will start to make the monitary cost seem abit less far fetched when comparing it to a 5870 card for example. Nvidia are very good at giving their current gen of cards speed increases through driver updates and this was proved in the past with the 14x.xx series especially which gave massive gains in the titles at the time, just like the 10.3 catalysts are doing for ATI at the moment.

Personally I wouldn't buy a 480 due to the price as I thought splashing out £300 for my 5870 was enough to tide me over for a year or two. The next few months will be interesting though when manufacturers start to add their own cooling and driver optimisations roll out on the cards.

Btw in regards to single slot cooling, I really don't see everyones facination with it personally. I'd rather have a quiet dual slot cooling solution on my graphics card then a hairdryer single slot one anyday

 

[bhavv]

People over estimated the 5770, what resr do you game at may i ask and what is the rest of your rig, games you play?

They arent overestimated for their price. If one is too slow, then you buy two.

Two 5770s manage to outperform a 5870 in most games, and would actually be even closer ti a GTX 480 than the 5870 is.