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Intel about to expand into Graphics, AMD on the rise, are the tables turning on nVidia?

As soon a Raja Koduri left AMD Dr Lisa Sue set about his Vega Architecture, she increased the IPC by 53% and reduced the power consumption, they are now in Ryzen 4000 Mobile, in 35 Watt packages those iGPU's are quicker than Nvidia's MX250 discrete GPU's.

I said this while Raja Koduri was still at AMD, Raja Koduri is useless.

60 CU Vega with HBM2 vs RDNA1 40 CU with GDDR6 both 7nm ~200 vs ~300 Watts.

And yes Intel Xe GPU's have the same problem, large, hot, slow.....

MkfVR9T.png
 
https://www.hardwaretimes.com/intel-teases-xe-hp-gpu-die-shot-with-tens-of-billions-of-transistors/

What did i say about Raja's GPU's being large?????

The 2080TI is massive, no getting away from that at 775mm^2 (31mm x 24mm) its mahusive....

That's on 12nm.

For perspective:
An R9 290X is 431mm^2 on 28nm, that is quite a large GPU
A 1080TI is 470mm^2 on 16nm that is a large GPU
Vega 64 is 495mm^2 on 14nm, also a large GPU.
A 5700XT is 251mm^2 on 7nm, that is a mid size GPU, its the same size as an RX 590 on 12nm., similar number of shaders on a smaller node than the 5700 but more stuff in the RDNA architecture.

So... this colossus thing, taking the battery as a size guide is about 65mm x 35mm, (2275mm^2) three times the size of an already huge RTX 2080TI

Intel first Xe demo unit was a 50 Watt discrete GPU taken from Tiger Lake bumped up to that power envelope, it had similar performance to a GTX 1050.

Tiger Lake. https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/i...lake-with-xe-based-gpu-and-thunderbolt-4.html the CPU on that thing we know from Wikipedia is 136mm x 107mm (146mm^2) the Xe GPU on that photo looks about 2.5X the size, about 350mm^2.

Intel have stopped talking about Discrete gaming GPU's, they used to talk about it quite a lot, with great passion. All that noise is gone, now they just talk about specialized GPU workloads, the sort of thing i suspect Nvidia and AMD can do with much smaller GPU's.

We ain't getting no gaming graphics competitors to Nvidia and AMD, they are not our knights in Blue armour, designing good GPU's is not easy, its extremely difficult and the bar of quality mostly driven by Nvidia keeps moving, and its way out of reach of what Intel are capable of, Frankly they can't even keep up with AMD on the CPU side, not when you haven't got infinite cooling and power delivery to brute force your way up, not by a long way....

I do find this extremely frustrating.

wTBbAiW.jpg.png
 
LePhuronn said:
That's a datacenter compute GPU, probably utilising multiple tiles, hardly representative of consumer-grade gaming GPUs.
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The rumours are that it was repurposed that way after Raja added a load of compute functionality that then made it uncompetitive as a discrete GPU, hence the silence from Intel regarding the gaming GPU it was supposedly working on.
 
Now y'see I'm hearing conflicting info on this. On the one hand, you have information coming out saying Raja completely fisted Xe with all the unnecessary compute, making it poor at just everything. On the other hand you have information saying that a single Xe tile is actually quite impressive (Tiger Lake's iGPU for instance) and the multi-tile scaling performance is almost linear, it's just the overpowered interconnect dragging it down.

I have a feeling that it's actually both things and that the tile-based design and tile-based performance in Tiger Lake has come from Intel binning off the **** Raja did.

Oh, imagine the collaboration Intel and AMD could come up with: Intel have promising GPU chiplets but no interconnect, AMD have a great interconnect but no GPU tiles. Come together and dethrone Nvidia because their Hopper is nowhere near ready!
 
Intel and AMD teaming up to beat Nvidia, reminds me of Stalin and Churchill joining forces against Hitler.
 
Cyber-Mav said:
Dont think anyone has spotted this but thats an 18650 battery.
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Which is specced at 65-68mm long, significantly larger than a 50.5mm AA battery, making that chip massive.

It seems to me that Intel has made the mistake of thinking that with one chip they can address all segments of the market. You can't address low end, gaming enthusiast, and server markets with the one chip. That's the corner Raja seems to have painted them into.
 
Steampunk said:
Which is specced at 65-68mm long, significantly larger than a 50.5mm AA battery, making that chip massive.

It seems to me that Intel has made the mistake of thinking that with one chip they can address all segments of the market. You can't address low end, gaming enthusiast, and server markets with the one chip. That's the corner Raja seems to have painted them into.
Click to expand...

It looks like it maybe an MCM,especially with the unsual layout of the components on the underside of the PCB??
 
Steampunk said:
It seems to me that Intel has made the mistake of thinking that with one chip they can address all segments of the market. You can't address low end, gaming enthusiast, and server markets with the one chip. That's the corner Raja seems to have painted them into.
Click to expand...

Thats what he did when he was at AMD too, he done those Vega cards for compute, that he also knocked out as gaming cards.

They were doing these.

maxresdefault.jpg


:D
 
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Steampunk said:
Which is specced at 65-68mm long, significantly larger than a 50.5mm AA battery, making that chip massive.

It seems to me that Intel has made the mistake of thinking that with one chip they can address all segments of the market. You can't address low end, gaming enthusiast, and server markets with the one chip. That's the corner Raja seems to have painted them into.
Click to expand...

So you could eat your dinner off this thing....
 
LoadsaMoney said:
Thats what he did when he was at AMD too, he done those Vega cards for compute, that he also knocked out as gaming cards.
:D
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Vega is a good multi-purpose card that can do gaming and compute tasks, without being cut down only for gaming like the Nvidia gaming cards. As a base, you can see what's been possible with the 5700 IPC increase on RDNA, but that also shows how much performance was left on the table by Raja. At the same time AMD had APUs/580s for the low end, Vega for enthusiast/gaming/PC compute, and Rome for servers. Intel can't do much with Xe now except offer it to servers. It's not viable anywhere else due to it's rumoured power and cooling requirements, and even then, I can see a lot of server farms baulking at it, especially in the face of Rome 2 from AMD. Even if Intel were to spend a ton of money supporting and subsidizing it as a consumer product, how could you put this in a PC with big power and cooling requirements?

It's a product that has no where to go, which is exactly what Intel have been making for the last few years. Their CPU philosophy seems to be "this is what we are making, so this is what the customer will buy", but that only works until someone like AMD comes along and makes something better and what the customer actually wants. In the GPU space where Intel also have to compete with Nvidia, it is going to make a product-without-a-home like Xe dead on arrival.

humbug said:
So you could eat your dinner off this thing....
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You and the whole of your family could sit around it and have Sunday lunch on it.
 
You know things are bad in the desktop gpu market when people are placing their hopes in the most anti-consumer hardware company to come and save the day.
 
NZXT30 said:
You know things are bad in the desktop gpu market when people are placing their hopes in the most anti-consumer hardware company to come and save the day.
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I think people just want a change from the status quo of AMD under performing and Nvidia (also not massively pro-consumer) dribbling out incremental improvements at high cost. More competition is supposed to create more innovation (though don't hold your breath for price cuts). I think Intel has screwed the pooch for a while on Xe, and we're more likely to see interesting things from Lisa Su's revitalised AMD. AMD's R&D spend has gone up significantly, and they do seem to be building up a war chest to innovate in the CPU, and then GPU spaces, but first initially making inroads into the most profitable segments of the market. Current Ryzen and Epyc products are really exceptional, with little competition.

Nvidia seems to be in the doldrums (probably waiting for competition or the smart car market to pick up), Intel seems to be not able to execute, and AMD with both GPU and CPU tech appear to be actually innovating and moving forwards with some kind of purpose in both areas.
 
Steampunk said:
I think people just want a change from the status quo of AMD under performing and Nvidia (also not massively pro-consumer) dribbling out incremental improvements at high cost. More competition is supposed to create more innovation (though don't hold your breath for price cuts). I think Intel has screwed the pooch for a while on Xe, and we're more likely to see interesting things from Lisa Su's revitalised AMD. AMD's R&D spend has gone up significantly, and they do seem to be building up a war chest to innovate in the CPU, and then GPU spaces, but first initially making inroads into the most profitable segments of the market. Current Ryzen and Epyc products are really exceptional, with little competition.

Nvidia seems to be in the doldrums (probably waiting for competition or the smart car market to pick up), Intel seems to be not able to execute, and AMD with both GPU and CPU tech appear to be actually innovating and moving forwards with some kind of purpose in both areas.
Click to expand...

The 5700XT while not perfect is a good start to AMD's new found purpose, in performance terms its a little beast and there are no caveats to that performance, it deals with high tessellation as well if not better than Nvidia.

The only two thing's that lets it down is AMD are clearly not binning them, if they kept the best silicon for the 5700XT it could be better tuned and draw as little as 150 Watts, which for 2070 <> 2070 Super performance is very good. And some AIB's build them like it was a Friday afternoon and couldn't be bothered. Its only AMD's own exclusive partners that seem to do a good job of it, well... that is except XFX but they have been the exception for some years now. The Powercolor and Sapphire ones are very good, Gigbabite seem to be the exception out of main vendors in that it is also good. The Asus TUF is shockingly bad and MSI's two lower end ones are not much better.
 
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