Intel Capital will invest £5.28m in Imagination (PowerVR)

[queamin]

Intel will more likey use something from PVR sometme in future but i really think to catch up/be on equal terms, will cost a lot as ati/nvidia R&D must be in the 100's millions, i would thnk.
A question as Vista soon to be out is there a standard at which a chipset(video and sound) must be able to run it and it games for dx10 as if there is on board chipsets might start to cost a bit more.

 

[Boogle]

Intel will more likey use something from PVR sometme in future but i really think to catch up/be on equal terms, will cost a lot as ati/nvidia R&D must be in the 100's millions, i would thnk.
A question as Vista soon to be out is there a standard at which a chipset(video and sound) must be able to run it and it games for dx10 as if there is on board chipsets might start to cost a bit more.

The problem is NV/ATI are tied to a brute-force approach for the time being due to PowerVR patents.

A small company called AMD managed to outperform an Industry giant for many years due to a unique design. I would imagine Intel with PowerVR licenses could do something similiar if they really wanted to. But then again - do they? It seems they just want to strengthen their integrated market due to strong competition from ATI/NV. PVR is perfect for that due to low bandwidth requirements, as well as low power/transistor requirements.

An onboard graphics solution that offers the performance of low-end discrete GPUs would be very attractive.

 

[smit101]

So if this so called 'intellectual property' of Power VR could be used by the 2 major PC,GPU companies of today,would we have more advanced graphics solutions at our fingertips than are currently available? e.g higher levels of AA with less performance hit?etc.

Very interesting thread by the way,raises loads of questions,and Pottsey you're obviously a damn brainy bloke!so learn to use the quote button.

 

[BoomAM]

Its funny all the people critisisng Pottsey for not using quotes.
As its quite obvious that they are only doing so because they cant come up with any counter points, and dont want it to look like they just got pearled out. lol.
Its not in the forum rules that he must use quotes, so if he wants to use bold instead, then he can. So stop complaining people!

On a different note, i was under the impression that tile based rendering was done by all gfx cards now?

 

[Cyber-Mav]

On a different note, i was under the impression that tile based rendering was done by all gfx cards now?

yes they all do it in some form but its no where near as aggressive as the power VR implementation.

i believe ati call it Hyper-Z or something.

 

[smit101]

Its funny all the people critisisng Pottsey for not using quotes.
As its quite obvious that they are only doing so because they cant come up with any counter points, and dont want it to look like they just got pearled out. lol.
Its not in the forum rules that he must use quotes, so if he wants to use bold instead, then he can. So stop complaining people!

On a different note, i was under the impression that tile based rendering was done by all gfx cards now?

Why would I want to make any counter quotes? I respect what the bloke is saying and have asked a valid question which he hasn't answered yet?

You're the one making a big thing of the quote method being used,most of us are just having a playful dig and quite honestly couldn't give a flying **** how he quotes.It's a pity for you that our tongue in cheek style is over your head mate!

*Fully star out swearies! -J*

 

[BoomAM]

Why would I want to make any counter quotes? I respect what the bloke is saying and have asked a valid question which he hasn't answered yet?

You're the one making a big thing of the quote method being used,most of us are just having a playful dig and quite honestly couldn't give a flying **** how he quotes.It's a pity for you that our tongue in cheek style is over your head mate!

lol.
Lovin the diggin out style there. . Its a shame its so transparent.

Counter quotes are what usually happens on a forum. Someone says something, and then if someone can provide something to add or to change about that point, they counter post. Its called discussion.
Of which he has provided good information that no-one thus far has been able to 'beat'.
Only critisise his posting style which has no bearing whatsoever on the information being put across. Its otherwise known as desperation.

And im making a big thing of it by posting once in this thread!?
Wow, never thought that was making a big deal of it, considering many of you have been hounding him multiple times about it!
The fact that your trying to cover it up by claiming some higher level of intelligence being needed is just lackluster as well.

 

[smit101]

lol.
Lovin the diggin out style there. . Its a shame its so transparent.

Counter quotes are what usually happens on a forum. Someone says something, and then if someone can provide something to add or to change about the that point, they counter post. Its called discussion. Of which he has provided good information that no-one thus far has been able to 'beat'. Only critisise his posting style which has no bearing whatsoever on the information being put across. Its otherwise known as desperation.

And im making a big thing of it by posting once in this thread!?
Wow, never thought that was making a big deal of it, considering many of you have been hounding him multiple times about it!
But after all, you are the almighty intelligent one arnt you.

I wish mate!

 

[BoomAM]

You missed my Ninja edit.

 

[Pottsey]

“On a different note, i was under the impression that tile based rendering was done by all gfx cards now?“
PowerVR cards use Tile based rendering and deferred rending its using both together that make then unique. Apart from Intel I dont thinkg anyone else use's Tile based rendering.





“i believe ati call it Hyper-Z or something.”
Not far off Hyper_Z something, cannot remember its precise name is like a mini version of deferred rendering. It removes things that do not need to be rendered. Hyper-z remove something like 20% of hidden objects compared to about 99% for differed rendering. Please don’t quote that 20% number its most likely wrong as I am not sure precisely what the new ATI cards remove.

A bit to simplified this next bit so not 100% accurate but differed rending removes hidden objects so they don’t get rendered, saving filtrate for objects you can see.

Tile based rendering splits the screen into about lots of tiles and renders each tile one at a time. It does some fancy stuff so it needs far less bandwidth then rendering the full screen at one this also saves memory.

More info here http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=1253&p=4 and if someone wants whitepapers explained it in more detail I can dig up some links







“So if this so called 'intellectual property' of Power VR could be used by the 2 major PC,GPU companies of today,would we have more advanced graphics solutions at our fingertips than are currently available?”
That’s debatable and also depends on what you class as advanced. I hate using cars but it’s the easiest way to explain. I think of Nivida as brute force less elegant solution. They have lots of raw power kind of like an America cars. While PowerVR have more elegant solutions with less raw power like European cars.

Which is better depends where you’re driving. On the wide open long straight roads in America brute force is king. For the narrow winding roads in Europe the more elegant solution with less power is king.

Same for games if the game has little overdraw brute force is faster. If the game has lots of overdraw PowerVR’s method is faster.

One drown side to IP company’s is it graphic card cycles are longer. There are no short 6 or even 9 months cycles with PowerVR. Its normally a year or longer between cards.

 

[Moeks]

Interesting stuff, I always liked the PVR technology, or at least the ideas behind it, if they ever get another good chance to properly implement their technology in the desktop market then it would certainly make for interesting times. Reliable drivers would help too.

Pottsey: This is a slightly off topic question but are you the same Pottsey who posts frequently in the Eve-Online forums and was/is a major advocate for passive shield tanking? ...if so, you're still operating well outside the 'conventional ideas' box with all this PVR stuff and alternative quoting methods, hence why you are getting lambasted by some people. I wouldn't worry about it though; it's always good to have some 'left-field' ideas in a world full of such established 'norms' ...just occasionally something brilliant comes out of them

And if the above paragraph about Eve meant nothing to you, just ignore it

However despite my respect for alternative ideas I do think that the traditional quotation system is easier to read, your way is ok by me (I would never dream of trying to tell someone they are wrong to do it the way they do) if you would only quote the name of who you are quoting, we don't all read the entire thread and may just read your post and wish to quickly reference back to whoever said something you may have quoted, your way of doing it makes this annoying difficult.

 

[Cyber-Mav]

i guess every generation of gfx card that passes the amount of differed rendering increases slightly, either z buffer occlusion culling is improved or optimisations to the shader paths are made etc.


i remember playing a game called Ultimate Race on my Nec Power Vr add in card. the graphics in that game were truly next level compared to anything else out at the time.

 

[Pottsey]

Moeks wrote:
“Pottsey: This is a slightly off topic question but are you the same Pottsey who posts frequently in the Eve-Online forums and was/is a major advocate for passive shield tanking? ...”

Yes that’s me. I did get into PowerVR before Eve. Wish I joined Eve when it started not soon after. But still a great game even if you join late.

is this any better quoting wise or should I try it another way? I just figured who ever I am quoting could recognise there own text so no name was needed. Didn’t think about it from someone else’s point of view.



Which is better with or without the extra line space. Below without the space.

Moeks wrote:
“Pottsey: This is a slightly off topic question but are you the same Pottsey who posts frequently in the Eve-Online forums and was/is a major advocate for passive shield tanking? ...”
Yes that’s me. I did get into PowerVR before Eve. Wish I joined Eve when it started not soon after. But still a great game even if you join late.

 

[Cyber-Mav]

pottsey's classic quotes with no name is the best. looks like your answering a generic question which is good and seperates you from the rest. allways innovate, never immitate, otherwise you end up like ATi

 

[Moeks]

Yea I like that much more, having the name there makes it very much easier to cross reference and read around a thread without necessarily reading absolutely everything or remember exactly who wrote what etc

 

[megatron]

The problem is with pottsey's quotes is that its infinitely more difficult to work out who he is quoting. The whole reason for quote (is it not?) that u can read the post as a stand alone and not have to refer back to see what the preceeding post was.

I admit I only use grafics cards I dont design them, and have no interest in the working details beyond the fact that they can do shadows, lighting, AA, AF.

I posted in this thread about the potential business ramifications and how this merger could effect the graphics card market as a whole.

Once again Im not interested in Kryo's tile based rendering and its efficiency's that means it doesnt render hidden polygons, and from the title of the post u would not expect to find a debate on the technical workings of said graphics cards.



I object to Potessy's quotes on the same basis that OcUk blanks "text speak" such as " ** ", because it makes the forum harder to read.

I think anyone questioning another persons intelligence based on wether they object to not using the board's tools to its potential, should think more carefully before they decide to insult people on open forum.

 

[Boogle]

The problem is with pottsey's quotes is that its infinitely more difficult to work out who he is quoting. The whole reason for quote (is it not?) that u can read the post as a stand alone and not have to refer back to see what the preceeding post was.

I posted in this thread about the potential business ramifications and how this merger could effect the graphics card market as a whole.

Once again Im not interested in Kryo's tile based rendering and its efficiency's that means it doesnt render hidden polygons, and from the title of the post u would not expect to find a debate on the technical workings of said graphics cards.

I object to Potessy's quotes on the same basis that OcUk blanks "text speak" such as " ** ", because it makes the forum harder to read.

I think anyone questioning another persons intelligence based on wether they object to not using the board's tools to its potential, should think more carefully before they decide to insult people on open forum.

You should be interested - if only if its for the 'business ramifications'. If a faster GPU suddenly arrived on the scene, don't you think it would tip the balance of power (marketshare) in favour of the newcomer?

Its well known that AMD want ATI so they can have a vendor-supplied solution, akin to Intel's (ie. CPU/Chipset/Mobo all from the same vendor). Now ATI's integrated graphics wipe the floor with Intel's, but what if Intel licensed PowerVR tech making a GPU that offered mainstream performance - yet only used system memory? The elegant approach of the new Intel graphics means lower transistor counts, less heat, less bandwidth - perfect for integrated graphics. Now even though AMD have ATI's graphics expertise, they can't beat the new Intel solution.

As for not using the forum's tools to the max - well, thats hardly a point now is it? I can do all sorts with text, yet it actually makes everything rather annoying.

 

[Pottsey]

Boogle I have been wondering are you the Boogle Oggle I was to talk to years back? I believe you started a website based around the same name and we talked about it years back. I know I got that name wrong as well, it was along those lines. Did you used to have a different name or have I got the wrong person or perhaps remembering wrongly.

 

[Boogle]

Boogle I have been wondering are you the Boogle Oggle I was to talk to years back? I believe you started a website based around the same name and we talked about it years back. I know I got that name wrong as well, it was along those lines. Did you used to have a different name or have I got the wrong person or perhaps remembering wrongly.

Yep, one and the same Just dropped the 'Oogle' part.

 

[megatron]

You should be interested - if only if its for the 'business ramifications'. If a faster GPU suddenly arrived on the scene, don't you think it would tip the balance of power (marketshare) in favour of the newcomer?

Entirely the point I was trying to make. How will it effect the "balance of power" in your opinion? Personally Id like to see power VR's technology brought up to par in performance stakes. That way we would see PC games makers becoming more like console game makers (in terms of graphics quality), since they would have a more lvl playing field.

Games become more attractive on consoles during its lifetime not because its been upgraded, but the programmers get more experience at programming for it.