Intel kills 10nm ?? oO

[233]

out of interest how much spare capacity does TSMC have at the moment if any and do they have room/facilities for easy expansion?

https://wccftech.com/amd-7nm-wafer-...-7nm-capacity-at-tsmc-currently-fully-booked/
quick google suggests the 2nd half of 2020 sees apple off to 5nm freeing up a fair chunk of capacity so going to be an interesting 2nd half of the year i think

 

[smilingcrow]

smilingcrow: $750 is a bigger number than $350
4 times the cores for LESS THAN DOUBLE the price

You missed the most important part which is that there were two die shrinks leading to roughly 4 times the transistor density.
So quadruple the density for quadruple the cores for double the price equals half the value.
We're all getting played, by Nvidia, AMD and Intel.
Maybe Apple are to blame as so many sheep just bent over to pay their prices that other manufactures realised that they can do the same.
At least with PCs there is more potential for competition although some PC buyers have the same cult mentality as iPhone buyers and can't see beyond the brand name.
As you were.

 

[LePhuronn]

You missed the most important part which is that there were two die shrinks leading to roughly 4 times the transistor density.
So quadruple the density for quadruple the cores for double the price equals half the value.

No, you missed the important point in that you're talking utter rubbish.

Essentially you're saying that because a top-end halo part is half the "value" of a 5-year old upper mainstream part, we're all getting fleeced? Put your maths onto this then: Ryzen 5 3600. Quadruple the density with 50% more cores for 52% of the price...what's the value?

Interesting though that you stomped your feet a few times about "I never said anything about value" and now you are talking about value as your tenuous arguments start falling apart.

 

[marms]

You missed the most important part which is that there were two die shrinks leading to roughly 4 times the transistor density.
So quadruple the density for quadruple the cores for double the price equals half the value.
We're all getting played, by Nvidia, AMD and Intel.

AMD increase the number of transistors in each processor with each die shrink, that's why a 3600x is roughly the same performance as a 2700x, but released at a lower price.
Would you prefer them to just keep rolling out the same processor with new numbers like Intel do?

 

[Boot_Loop]

This stupid false equivalence between Intel fleecing and (apparently) AMD fleecing us is more motivated by damage control for Intel than any concerns for us as consumers.

It doesn't make any sense which is the main issue though. AMD have delivered comparatively incredible value the last 3 years.

 

[Zeeflyboy]

7nm+ won't free up new manufacturing capacity as it uses the same tech with a few high tech modifications.

Would be interested in what you are basing that on - I don't believe it's true. I watched a factory tour which discussed the EUV process and it is a different manufacturing technology with significantly different techniques required as compared to conventional DUV methodology (which the current N7 process from TSMC uses), and uses very different machines as a result...

Everything from the laser generation source to the path it travels, the way it is steered and focussed down using mirrors rather than lenses, the mask, the fact it has to be under vacuum is all very different to DUV... all this would preclude simply modifying the machines.


Edit - also note (Bold emphasis mine):

The N7+ node is TSMC's first process technology to adopt EUV lithography. It is unrelated to N7 nor N7P and is not IP-compatible with either, requiring re-implementation (new physical layout and validation). N7+ entered mass production in the second quarter of 2019 and uses EUV for four critical layers.

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/7_nm_lithography_process

 

[LePhuronn]

AMD have delivered comparatively incredible value the last 3 years

But the argument isn't about value! Until it is about value

 

[Sargatanas2511]

AMD increase the number of transistors in each processor with each die shrink, that's why a 3600x is roughly the same performance as a 2700x, but released at a lower price.
Would you prefer them to just keep rolling out the same processor with new numbers like Intel do?

The 3600x is almost the same performance as the 2700x due to modifications to the architecture and package that led to a decent IPC bump + a clock speed increase. Simply shrinking the die and increasing density won't really give you any extra performance (other than lower power usage/higher clock speed).

 

[NinjaCool]

According to Wikichip the N7+ node is unrelated to N7 nor N7P and is not IP-compatible with either, requiring re-implementation (new physical layout and validation) and is said to deliver around 1.2x density improvement.
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/7_nm_lithography_process

 

[DragonQ]

You missed the most important part which is that there were two die shrinks leading to roughly 4 times the transistor density.
So quadruple the density for quadruple the cores for double the price equals half the value.
We're all getting played, by Nvidia, AMD and Intel.
Maybe Apple are to blame as so many sheep just bent over to pay their prices that other manufactures realised that they can do the same.
At least with PCs there is more potential for competition although some PC buyers have the same cult mentality as iPhone buyers and can't see beyond the brand name.
As you were.

You are assuming that each wafer costs the same. This is not true, 7nm was (and probably still is) more expensive than 14nm or 12nm when Ryzen 3 and Threadripper 3 chips were being manufactured.

 

[jigger]

Which has absolutely nothing at all to do with the simple point I made.
Are you all unable to grasp such a simple concept? A bit scary really!

Are you unable to see that your concept isn’t based in reality.

i7 6950X - $1750
i9 7980XE - $2000

AMD have made entire ranges of CPU's redundant. Chips that IMO would have seen ever increasing prices with minimal performance jumps.

 

[LePhuronn]

OK smilingcrow, take Intel out of the comparison and do AMD vs AMD.

FX 9590: 8c/8t $920
3950X: 16c/32t $750
3800X: 8c/16t $399

Phenom II X6 1100T Black Edition: 6c/6t $265
Phenom II X6 1090T Black Edition: 6c/6t $295 ($230 after 1100T launch)
Ryzen 5 3600X: 6c/12t $239

Phenom II X6 1055T: 6c/6t $199
Ryzen 5 3600: 6c/12t $199

Is your "argument" stone dead yet?

 

[jigger]

out of interest how much spare capacity does TSMC have at the moment if any and do they have room/facilities for easy expansion?

https://wccftech.com/amd-7nm-wafer-...-7nm-capacity-at-tsmc-currently-fully-booked/
quick google suggests the 2nd half of 2020 sees apple off to 5nm freeing up a fair chunk of capacity so going to be an interesting 2nd half of the year i think

TSMC are expending capacity and apple have moved.

 

[Freddie1980]

Would be interested in what you are basing that on - I don't believe it's true. I watched a factory tour which discussed the EUV process and it is a different manufacturing technology with significantly different techniques required as compared to conventional DUV methodology (which the current N7 process from TSMC uses), and uses very different machines as a result...

Everything from the laser generation source to the path it travels, the way it is steered and focussed down using mirrors rather than lenses, the mask, the fact it has to be under vacuum is all very different to DUV... all this would preclude simply modifying the machines.

Edit - also note (Bold emphasis mine):

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/7_nm_lithography_process

The new 7nm+/EUV is very impressive but it's going to replace existing 7nm machinery. I'm basing my comments on what Lisa Su said in her interview at CES where she said both processes share similar technologies which makes sense.

 

[LePhuronn]

but it's going to replace existing 7nm machinery

Cite your source. Sharing common technology does not mean sharing machines.

 

[Freddie1980]

Cite your source. Sharing common technology does not mean sharing machines.

I said it won't free up capacity by moving to EUV and the process shares similar technology and even if there was magically more wafers available AMD already put themselves down for 30k wafers a month which as I've shown at least half is for the new consoles. Until TSMC can either upgrade existing factories or build new ones total output will be constrained. Things should improve once the initial console demand wains but that won't be for a while but by that stage AMD would have moved a lot of it's products over to 5nm.

 

[jigger]

I said it won't free up capacity by moving to EUV and the process shares similar technology and even if there was magically more wafers available AMD already put themselves down for 30k wafers a month which as I've shown at least half is for the new consoles. Until TSMC can either upgrade existing factories or build new ones total output will be constrained. Things should improve once the initial console demand wains but that won't be for a while but by that stage AMD would have moved a lot of it's products over to 5nm.

TSMC are adding 30,000 to the capacity and at least three customers have moved to 5nm. 40-50,000 wafers should be available to AMD. Maybe even more

 

[LePhuronn]

I said it won't free up capacity by moving to EUV and the process shares similar technology and even if there was magically more wafers available AMD already put themselves down for 30k wafers a month which as I've shown at least half is for the new consoles. Until TSMC can either upgrade existing factories or build new ones total output will be constrained. Things should improve once the initial console demand wains but that won't be for a while but by that stage AMD would have moved a lot of it's products over to 5nm.

Except for the fact that using 7nm EUV does free up 7nm vanilla capacity because they do not share machinery.

Zen 3 is 7nm EUV, so all Ryzen 4000 and EPYC Milan chiplets will be made on 7nm EUV. That frees up a boatload of capacity immediately to make the consoles, Ryzen 4000 APUs and Threadripper 3000 chiplets, and more capacity comes as Zen 2 production winds down. Plus Apple are moving away from 7nm too, which gives even more capacity over to AMD's current generation products.

And also TSMC are ramping capacity for all of their process even more.

 

[FoxEye]

But the argument isn't about value! Until it is about value

Maybe it's true, but from a pure gaming perspective (literally couldn't care about anything else perspective), I'm not seeing AMD offer much more than Intel.

Sure the chips may be technically superior, and I personally wouldn't buy Intel at this point in time.

But in gaming and gaming alone, the perf/£ AMD give isn't really different to the perf/£ Intel give. Because like it or not, Intel's chips are still better in many games.

AMD still have work to do on the gaming front. Why I still haven't bought in to Ryzen quite yet.

 

[Deleted member 209350]

Maybe it's true, but from a pure gaming perspective (literally couldn't care about anything else perspective), I'm not seeing AMD offer much more than Intel.

Sure the chips may be technically superior, and I personally wouldn't buy Intel at this point in time.

But in gaming and gaming alone, the perf/£ AMD give isn't really different to the perf/£ Intel give. Because like it or not, Intel's chips are still better in many games.

AMD still have work to do on the gaming front. Why I still haven't bought in to Ryzen quite yet.

Understandable. I think Zen3 will fix those issues given the eumours of the 8 core CCX dies (to massively reduce latency) and the 17% IPC improvements whilst increasing clock speeds slightly.