Intel Preps Core i7 9700k 8 core 16 Thread Mainstream CPU

DragonQ · 30 Nov 2017 at 23:09

gavinh87 said:
Thermal limited or not, it temps are not that great on a soldered 14nm CPU clocked 1ghz less. What don't you understand that?
Have a read of this http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

I don't believe for one second that its purely based on cost.

Ha, I knew without clicking which article that was. I don't really buy the argument considering there's not much evidence that soldering dies of this size is actually a problem. If AMD can do it supposedly without issue I'm sure Intel can. Regardless, if solder is really a problem then there is far better TIM that could be used; I can't see a reason not to use better TIM except for cost cutting.

gavinh87 · 30 Nov 2017 at 23:15

DragonQ said:
Ha, I knew without clicking which article that was. I don't really buy the argument considering there's not much evidence that soldering dies of this size is actually a problem. If AMD can do it supposedly without issue I'm sure Intel can.

They can, they do it to the xeon line.
I'm pretty sure intel know more about metals than we do and there are reasons beyond costs. My opinion of course but I don't believe its all on costs.
Its not like intel are short of a penny or two is it!

DragonQ · 30 Nov 2017 at 23:26

Well if Xeons are soldered and Skylake-X isn't, considering they are the same dies, doesn't that show it's just cost cutting?

gavinh87 · 30 Nov 2017 at 23:45

DragonQ said:
Well if Xeons are soldered and Skylake-X isn't, considering they are the same dies, doesn't that show it's just cost cutting?

Setting up a new line outside of the usual process would cost a fair bit to implement also.
According to intel its for longevity, enterprise class CPU's prob get changed out quite regularly where as dave down the road would expect a good few years from his cpu.

I don't know, none of us do. I just don't think its ALL about cost cutting.

smilingcrow · 30 Nov 2017 at 23:52

gavinh87 said:
According to intel its for longevity, enterprise class CPU's prob get changed out quite regularly where as dave down the road would expect a good few years from his cpu.

I recall seeing a survey which suggested that only about 10% of servers have a CPU upgrade.
On top of that reliability for servers is a much more serious issue than for desktops.

muon · 30 Nov 2017 at 23:59

gavinh87 said:
Setting up a new line outside of the usual process would cost a fair bit to implement also.
According to intel its for longevity, enterprise class CPU's prob get changed out quite regularly where as dave down the road would expect a good few years from his cpu.

I don't know, none of us do. I just don't think its ALL about cost cutting.

Erm, servers tend to have very long lives. I'd say all corporate servers and machines last for at least 3 years if not far longer. System and IT change is both risky and expensive in terms of downtime/migration. They generally also just get upgraded in their entirety rather than 1 chip at a time.

A large proportion of people buying chips like the 8600K/8700K and 9700K won't be keeping the same chip for 3+ years. They are enthusiasts.

6600K/6700K was launched towards the end of 2015. I bet a minority of the 2015 purchasers will still have those chips by the end of 2018.

gavinh87 · 1 Dec 2017 at 00:27

I can only go from my own experience. We have well over 100 CAD machines running 24/7 We have swapped CPU's twice in the last 3 years.
10 seconds faster here and there are massive savings. Maybe I am wrong and it is solely about £££ we will never find out.

smilingcrow · 1 Dec 2017 at 00:32

Workstations are more likely to get upgraded than servers partly because they aren't serving other client devices so the downtime has much less of an impact.

Doobedoo · 1 Dec 2017 at 10:11

gavinh87 said:
Thermal limited or not, it temps are not that great on a soldered 14nm CPU clocked 1ghz less. What don't you understand that?
Have a read of this http://overclocking.guide/the-truth-about-cpu-soldering/

I don't believe for one second that its purely based on cost.

Ok so your comparing a first generation cpu which it's architectural process is only designed for low power hence it's 4ghz ceiling, to a completely different cpu and architectural process which has been refined over many generations to run at 5ghz+. You are then saying that Ryzen at 3.8ghz which is very close to the limits to at what that chip can do, runs hotter than the Intel chip at 3.8ghz, which is nowhere near the limit of that chip or the process it's designed on. You are then using that as an example and excuse of how intel stock Tim is just as good as solder and therefore trying to justify it, even though you have critized them in the past for that very same thing. Are you aware how ridiculous that sounds?

Anyway I'm not going to argue with you, you know your wrong and your newfound emotional attachment to intel is clearly clouding your judgment.

That link is very similar to one I posted a while back written by der8eur. If I remember rightly he has since then said that Intel had likely done it for financial reasons. It's the most logical conclusion to make for all those that are not thinking or behaving like a fanboy.

gavinh87 · 1 Dec 2017 at 10:18

Doobedoo said:
At the limits of

Ok so your comparing a first generation cpu which it's architectural process is only designed for low power hence it's 4ghz ceiling, to a completely different cpu and architectural process which has been refined over many generations to run at 5ghz+. You are then saying that Ryazan at 3.8ghz which is very close to the limits to at what that chip can do runs hotter than the Intel chip at 3.8ghz, which is nowhere near the limit of that chip. You are then using that as an example of how intel stock Tim is just as good as solder. Are you aware how ridiculous that sounds?

Anyway I'm not going to argue with you, you know your wrong and your newfound emotional atachment to intel is clearly clouding your judgment.

That link is very similar to one I posted a while back written by der8eur. If I remember rightly he also concluded that Intel had likely done it for financial reasons. It's the most logical conclusion to make for all those that are not thinking or behaving like a fanboy.

Where have is said that TIM is as good as solder lol?
What I am saying is clock any other 14nm CPU to 4.5-5.0 and tell me that the temps are still decent.
There is no clouding of clouding of judgement going on here, me nor anyone else knows the reason why they no longer use solder. They've done it before so its not like its a process that is stopping them nor its not like they cannot afford it.

That article was written by der8auer.

Doobedoo · 1 Dec 2017 at 10:25

gavinh87 said:
Where have is said that TIM is as good as solder lol?
What I am saying is clock any other 14nm CPU to 4.5-5.0 and tell me that the temps are still decent.
There is no clouding of clouding of judgement going on here, me nor anyone else knows the reason why they no longer use solder. They've done it before so its not like its a process that is stopping them nor its not like they cannot afford it.

That article was written by der8auer.

You are trying to bring AMD into it and comparing 2 completely different cpu's as a way of justifying Intels use of Tim. Did I miss something?

Forget any over cpu your missing the point. With the 7700k or 8700k the only way you can safely push those chip to maximum is by delidding. That tells you that either the Tim or the way it's applied is inadequate and the use of solder would have mitigated the need to delid and void your warranty.

It's a financial decision gavin whether you want admit it or not.

Someone posted a video a little while back on here made by der8auer, with him stating that it was most likely a fanatical decision by Intel. I'll find it later.

gavinh87 · 1 Dec 2017 at 10:50

Doobedoo said:
You are trying to bring AMD into it and comparing 2 completely different cpu's as a way of justifying Intels use of Tim. Did I miss something?

Forget any over cpu your missing the point. With the 7700k or 8700k the only way you can safely push those chip to maximum is by delidding. That tells you that either the Tim or the way it's applied is inadequate and the use of solder would have mitigated the need to delid and void your warranty.

It's a financial decision gavin whether you want admit it or not.

Someone posted a video a little while back on here made by der8auer, with him stating that it was most likely a fanatical decision by Intel. I'll find it later.

Der8auer actually says "I'm pretty sure its not just to save money"

Watch from 6:30

DragonQ · 1 Dec 2017 at 11:12

Doesn't matter. Not using actually good TIM is to save money, obviously.

Maybe we should return to the actual thread topic.

B1gbeard · 1 Dec 2017 at 11:13

Doobedoo said:
You are trying to bring AMD into it and comparing 2 completely different cpu's as a way of justifying Intels use of Tim. Did I miss something?

Forget any over cpu your missing the point. With the 7700k or 8700k the only way you can safely push those chip to maximum is by delidding. That tells you that either the Tim or the way it's applied is inadequate and the use of solder would have mitigated the need to delid and void your warranty.

It's a financial decision gavin whether you want admit it or not.

Someone posted a video a little while back on here made by der8auer, with him stating that it was most likely a fanatical decision by Intel. I'll find it later.

When you say safely to maximum you mean beyond what Intel is advertising them at and designed them for. At that point I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to push something beyond what they are advertised as capable of then it generally always costs more whether its better cooling or delidding.

I don't see how you can criticise something if someone wants to push it beyond it's advertised capabilities.

Doobedoo · 1 Dec 2017 at 11:39

B1gbeard said:
When you say safely to maximum you mean beyond what Intel is advertising them at and designed them for. At that point I'm not sure what the issue is. If you want to push something beyond what they are advertised as capable of then it generally always costs more whether its better cooling or delidding.

I don't see how you can criticise something if someone wants to push it beyond it's advertised capabilities.

That's fine then there is no need to advertise them as unlocked and sell them at a premium.

If people are happy with what they are buying then that's absolutely fine but we all know that solder would have performed better than the Tim they are using and that the customers would have better performing cpu's, without the need to delid and void the warranty.

DragonQ · 1 Dec 2017 at 11:50

Doobedoo said:
That's fine then there is no need to advertise them as unlocked and sell them at a premium.

If people are happy with what they are buying then that's absolutely fine but we all know that solder would have performed better than the Tim they are using and that the customers would have better performing cpu's, without the need to delid and void the warranty.

Yep. You can't really justify selling a premium product with a single killer feature compared to the rest of your line-up and then make it not really suited to that purpose out of the box. Requiring custom cooling is a given since the chips don't even come with coolers; maybe they shouldn't come with heatspreaders either then since the ones provided aren't really adequate? I know you can argue they will get to 4.8-4.9 GHz without delidding but it's still a bit ***** to require warranty-breaking user mods beyond that let's be honest.

Doobedoo · 1 Dec 2017 at 12:01

I don't have any stake in the outcome either way and to be honest it wouldn't really be an issue for me if I had to delid in order to push a chip farther.

The issue I have is trying to dress this up as anything other than what it is. Intel have used Tim for there own benefit, not for the customer. If they would have used solder, just like Amd, there customers would have a better performing product. It as simple as that.

jigger · 1 Dec 2017 at 15:23

Pricing will be key I think. If the 8700K becomes the 9600K 6/12 at the 8600k price and the 9700K slots in at £350 then Intel will have just about cought up to AMD on price assuming Z390 isn't another flash in the pan chipset.

Will be interesting to see if Intel have dealt with the ring bus. I hope they haven't just tagged another pair of cores onto Kaby lake in a panic and hoped for the best.

muon · 1 Dec 2017 at 23:47

Apparently it is 6+2 so it will be interesting to see what interconnect they are using.

smilingcrow · 1 Dec 2017 at 23:51

gavinh87 said:
I can only go from my own experience. We have well over 100 CAD machines running 24/7 We have swapped CPU's twice in the last 3 years.

If you are upgrading CPUs that frequently are you using 1P systems when you should be using 2P?