Interlagos - Brazilian Grand Prix 2009 - Race 16/17

JRS said:
For the love of God.....I've been shot down on here for suggesting that the '96 Ferrari was a bad car and that Schumacher did an epic job to win three times with it!
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Really? I thought it was generally accepted that it was a heap of ****? Hamilton is a great driver, I also rate Vettel in that bracket. Button, Alonso and Massa aren't *quite* in that bracket - Kimi could be in either if he could be mildly arsed. JB, FA and FM are all experienced and have learned to keep their cars on the road, to accept a 4th place rather than thrash the arse off it and compete to the end. They all have the potential to win races and even the WDC, but none of them have the potential to be a Senna, Prost or Schumacher.
 
Kitchster_uk said:
Really? I thought it was generally accepted that it was a heap of ****?
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Nope. SC04 didn't share that opinion with me back in '07 and insisted that the car wasn't a dog, therefore making Schumacher's successes with it rather more ordinary. Personally, I thought it was epic driving on his part to get that ugly, recalcitrant, unreliable heap of a car as high up the order as he generally did that year.

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Nope, that last bit'll just fan the flames. Don't want to make any more work for the mods than usual!
 
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PinkFloyd said:
Hang on, you rate Vettel above Alonso? lol
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Yes.

Vettel has shown real pace in the Torro Rosso as well as the Red Bull. He drives it on the edge and is much more eager and thirsty for it.

Alonso had the best car BY MILES with the Renault and as soon as he was put in with a rookie driver, he was made to look ordinary. Hamilton owned Alonso. Alonso has done naff all this season - Jarno Trulli has out-performed him, Nico Rosberg has out-performed him.

Vettel seems to have what it takes, whether or not he manages it I don't know, but I can see him and Hamilton battling for a long time to come.
 
That's a little unfair....

Yes Vettel is quick, I'm not going to deny that. But currently he needs to proove he can overtake better, he is alongside Massa for me at the moment.
Alonso driving at Mclaren against the messiah was a big challenge, I don't think you can say Alonso looked ordinary, just Hamilton looked extraordinary for a newbie. Being outperformed by Trulli and Rosberg this year is no suprise, they have far better cars than Alonso this year.
Alonso did late last year what Hamilton has done this year, taken a bad car and got results out of it.
When I see Massa/Vettel do that without a bit of luck from torrential rain, maybe I'll start to agree with you ;)
 
You can't really hold Hamilton as a rookie against Alonso to show that Alonso is a bad driver. You are talking about a rookie that should have won his first two seasons of F1.. he is a special case and thats what justifies his title as The Messiah.

Vettel is good, but he isnt a world champion.. yet..
 
PinkFloyd said:
That's a little unfair....

Yes Vettel is quick, I'm not going to deny that. But currently he needs to proove he can overtake better, he is alongside Massa for me at the moment.
Alonso driving at Mclaren against the messiah was a big challenge, I don't think you can say Alonso looked ordinary, just Hamilton looked extraordinary for a newbie. Being outperformed by Trulli and Rosberg this year is no suprise, they have far better cars than Alonso this year.
Alonso did late last year what Hamilton has done this year, taken a bad car and got results out of it.
When I see Massa/Vettel do that without a bit of luck from torrential rain, maybe I'll start to agree with you ;)
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The Toyota and the BMW are hardly brilliant cars, Alonso has been the worst thing you can be - anonymous.

gord said:
You can't really hold Hamilton as a rookie against Alonso to show that Alonso is a bad driver. You are talking about a rookie that should have won his first two seasons of F1.. he is a special case and thats what justifies his title as The Messiah.

Vettel is good, but he isnt a world champion.. yet..
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I didn't say Alonso was a bad driver, he's a very very good driver, I just don't see him being 'great'. Vettel isn't great yet, Neither is hamilton, but I believe they will both go on to be great. Hamilton is a better driver than Alonso, he came 2nd in his rookie season, won in his second season and has wrestled that pig of a McLaren around. Both the McLaren and the Renault were equally rubbish at the start of the season, Hamilton has gotten more out of his car.
 
Allow me to massage your E-ego and say great first post as usual AcidHell2.

If this race has me anywhere near as close to the edge of my seat as last year that'd be just fine.

I have a feeling Jensen will walk away with just enough points this weekend, though it's been such a long time since a really dominant brawn winning spree that it feels kind of strange, but the championship is about who picks up the most points, as has been discussed at length in the last thread.

Interlagos never disappoints, one of my all time favourite tracks. Now what year was is that it was such a washout that everyone went off at that stream around turn 3 I think?
 
Kitchster_uk said:
The Toyota and the BMW are hardly brilliant cars, Alonso has been the worst thing you can be - anonymous.
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Are you Jonathan Legard? He is the only person I've seen who seems to think Rosberg drives for BMW :/ :p

The Toyota was only one of the quickest cars along with Williams at the start of the season along with Brawn thanks to the double diffusers. Toyota have often been up there with some points, and had the opportunity to dominate the whole weekend with a 1-2 at Bahrain (iirc)

Both are far better cars than the Renault this year.
 
PinkFloyd said:
Are you Jonathan Legard? He is the only person I've seen who seems to think Rosberg drives for BMW :/ :p

The Toyota was only one of the quickest cars along with Williams at the start of the season along with Brawn thanks to the double diffusers. Toyota have often been up there with some points, and had the opportunity to dominate the whole weekend with a 1-2 at Bahrain (iirc)

Both are far better cars than the Renault this year.
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Oops, dunno why I typed BMW as opposed to Williams :p

The Renault has exactly the same engine in as the Redbull but has the advantage of being it's own engine. McLaren and Force India have the same Merc lump as the Brawn. If Fred can't help a team with the resources of Renault develop, he's not good enough. As for the Toyota engine, it's fairly good, but not on par with the Renault engine - add in Alonso is a MUCH better driver than either Rosberg or Trulli but he gets demotivated. He hasn't put enough effort in, he hasn't been loud enough and hasn't shown he wants it for me. Double diffusers may have helped, but every team has had pics of the Braawn/Toyota diffusers since Australia so excuse really.

Will Alonso win more races? Yes. Will he win another WDC? Not unless he has a car that is in a league of it's own.
 
I just tried to figure out whats needed from Button to win, its very complicated.

He needs 6 points to guarantee the championship regardless of where anyone else finishes. So if hes on the podium at the weekend, it will be as champion.

If not, then he can afford to drop 6 points to Vettel and 4 points to Rubens and still be champ, so wherever Vettel and Rubens finishes he needs to ensure hes within those points of them. But as the points arent liniar its difficult, lol.

If Vettel wins, Button needs to be 4th or higher, if Vettel comes 2nd, Button needs 7th or better, and if Vettel comes 3rd, he cant beat Button.

If Rubens wins, Button needs 3rd or better, if Rubens comes 2nd, Button needs 5th or better, if Rubens comes 3rd, Button needs 7th or better, if Rubens finishes 4th, he cant beat Button.

So, to guarantee staying in the fight, Rubens would need a podium, and Vettel would need top 2. To Guarantee the championship, Button needs a podium, or to be within 6 points of Vettel and 4 points of Rubens.

Now my brain hurts :(
 
Well done AH brilliant OP

Effectively Vettel needs to win both races to stand a chance and Rubens needs two podiums without considering where JB is

Thats the simple version

I just hope JB / Brawn dont mess up quali again like they have a few times recently (sc not helping matters)

Hoping for a really good race - personally thought last year was brilliant (esp with Hamilton making such shocking mistakes in the opening laps)
 
I would love to see this race finish Vettel 1st, Barichello 2nd and Button not score, so we go into the last round 85/79/79. That could make for an awesome last race again, with three guys with a shot at the title, with the advantage just in Button's favour.
 
Kenai said:
I would love to see this race finish Vettel 1st, Barichello 2nd and Button not score, so we go into the last round 85/79/79. That could make for an awesome last race again, with three guys with a shot at the title, with the advantage just in Button's favour.
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Good to see I'm not the only one who likes it to go down to the wire. :)
 
Kenai said:
I would love to see this race finish Vettel 1st, Barichello 2nd and Button not score, so we go into the last round 85/79/79. That could make for an awesome last race again, with three guys with a shot at the title, with the advantage just in Button's favour.
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I would like to see Rubens 1st with Button and Vettel DNF because I would dearly love to see Rubens win the WDC - he deserves it after all those years having to put up with Schumacher.
 
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