International Friendlies - England vs Norway/Belgium [May 26th - June 2nd 2012]

Well done for being incapable of reading, I used the STATS and ignored a random score you, he and I can't tell you how its made up. The STATS show Parker/Lampard are better, and arbitrary score says otherwise.

A couple of those stats are near useless, one is completely 100% subjective, the MAJORITY do not agree with the points, arbitrarily chose ANY of those stats you want, and base the points completely on that, the stats don't change, the points do. Points = subjective, stats = non subjective, stats = Lampard's better, points = Gerrard's better, people with eyesight = Lampard's better.

If you can't derive from those stats how the points system works then that is rather concerning. I'll give you a clue to start you off - the person who performs best in that category gets the most points, a crazy system I know. :o
 
If you can't derive from those stats how the points system works then that is rather concerning. I'll give you a clue to start you off - the person who performs best in that category gets the most points, a crazy system I know. :o

Tell me EXACTLY what proportion of each stat is used to make up the final score.

Here's a hint there aren't 29 stats listed there, and Gerrard wasn't the best in anywhere near all of them. So tell me which stats equate to his points tally and how.
 
Have I really just read that Opta stats are inaccurate and pathetic because they don't back up one persons opinion? :o

Focus, the STATS are fine, the POINTS are subjective because Opta can choose to weight each stat HOWEVER THEY WANT< and every other system uses different weighting.

Assuming the same person marking each game then each game would come out with the same pass completion percentage, but each stat system would SCORE THIS DIFFERENTLY. So the question is where do those 29 points come from, ignore the points and Gerrard by NONE of those stats is better than Gerrard.

Again I'll point out, it says Gerrard created more clear cut chances than Lampard, Lampard created apparently less clear cut chances than he got assists.... odd, and how is that stat weighted, because its one of only a few that Gerrard "beat" Lampard at, and how can you honestly say that clear cut chances isn't the only entirely subjective stat there?

You might also be interested to see that Opta change their scoring system, not every season, but frequently, their scoring system is merely their opinion and if you read into the "moneyball" stuff surrounding football. Most of the stats systems are trying to come up with an "uber" system like Baseball where they find new index's and new ways to interpret the data EVERY YEAR, to come up with a better way for managers to compare players.

So OPTA aren't sure this is the best way to allocate points, because they'll change it, and also its quite interesting to read up on Comolli, Fat Sam(whose quite into it) and a crapload of other managers who have said that one stat which they thought was really important, a couple years later, turns out to be BS and they move on, they make mistakes. The stats themselves are fairly accurate(non subjective ones, even what is a 50/50 tackle is entirely subjective, to a much smaller degree what is a successful pass is subjective, and a dribble), the points scoring is 100% subjective, changes most years, changes between EVERY stat's "system" of which there are MANY.

So arbitraily looking at a bunch of stats, most of which in raw data put Lampard ahead, and ONLY looking at the score and stating for a fact Gerrard is better, is nuts.

Again, Lampard has, better pass completion, better score rate, better assist rate, better tackle completion, yet the score says something completely different.

I find it humourous that you all think Opta's points are infallable, when Opta themselves don't think they are.......
 
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Tell me EXACTLY what proportion of each stat is used to make up the final score.

Here's a hint there aren't 29 stats listed there, and Gerrard wasn't the best in anywhere near all of them. So tell me which stats equate to his points tally and how.

What on earth are you talking about? It's patently obvious how Gerrard was given 29 points and I have no idea why you are talking about 29 stats. As you would say, learn to read. :o

Edit: Also, the weighting of the stats has nothing to do with Opta, that's down to the writer of the article. And "one of the few that Gerrard beat Lampard at" - "the few" being 4?

Edit 2: And you're the one that bangs on about the pointlessness of the assist stat and I expect the clear cut chance created stat is an attempt to alleviate this. AFAIK this refers to key passes which create a chance which should be scored. It's entirely possible this could be less than the assist stat because assists include getting an accidental or unimportant touch in the build up to a goal.

I don't really rate Gerrard or Lampard as midfielders anyway, they're both centre forwards if you ask me.
 
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What on earth are you talking about? It's patently obvious how Gerrard was given 29 points and I have no idea why you are talking about 29 stats. As you would say, learn to read. :o

Edit: Also, the weighting of the stats has nothing to do with Opta, that's down to the writer of the article. And "one of the few that Gerrard beat Lampard at" - "the few" being 4?

Edit 2: And you're the one that bangs on about the pointlessness of the assist stat and I expect the clear cut chance created stat is an attempt to alleviate this. AFAIK this refers to key passes which create a chance which should be scored. It's entirely possible this could be less than the assist stat because assists include getting an accidental or unimportant touch in the build up to a goal.

I don't really rate Gerrard or Lampard as midfielders anyway, they're both centre forwards if you ask me.

I don't bang on about assist stats being pointless, at all.

As for Opta stats, meh, I'm doing other stuff, I guess i meant EPL index stat or whatever the site is.

The main thing is that the points system is COMPLETELY ARBITRARY.

Aside from the points being completely arbitrary and the points ONLY being valid for that particular group of players(put in another 30 players and all the point totals would change, that is how useful the points are). There is no difference between a 89% pass completion of Parker and the 76% (which is abysmal for the EPL by the way) of Gerrard, with Lampard being significantly closer to Parker than Gerrard in that.

It does not take into account several of the stats, Lampard is scored on 5 out of 16 stats, purely because he isn't in the top 3 of most of them, many of which leave nothing to suggest how useful they are. As said, Gerrard gets 5 whole points for having the highest aerial 50/50 win rate... Did he win 5 headers all season, all of which went straight to an opposition defender? Does the stat mean anything at all? From that list we have no idea, yet he gets 5 points, and Lampard gets nothing for the significantly higher tackling and pass completion rate, which we can assume both are hugely more significant than aerial 50/50 win rate.

Minutes played isn't scored, despite when you want to take ONE squad to a tournament a players fitness being crucial.... King in the last tournament for instance, he wouldn't be scored down vs other centre backs in that comparison, yet had it been scored, which it damn well should be, King would have dropped down the list and maybe not been chosen.

The comparison is arbitrary, the points are arbitrary, and it doesn't compare 2/3rd's of Lampards stats vs Gerrard, making the points comparison completely invalid.

When you look at the invididual stats, the MOST important ones are all in Lampards favour, same goes for Parker vs Carrick. The points aren't a statistic, its a persons arbitrary scoring system which is of no worth at all.

Lampard and Gerrard also aren't centre forwards by any stretch of the imagination. Not least because Gerrard's fitness seemingly more than anything else but also Liverpool's squad means he's barely been a withdrawn striker for the past 2 years, and he only really played that role semi frequently for a couple years before that.

Rewatch the champs league final, and the semi's and the quarters, and England for the past 8 years, Lampard has played the defensive role often for donkeys years, and the offensive role, he's better going forward but extremely good defensively, Scholes is also very effective defensively(great players are often good anywhere).

Lampard has out scored and out assisted EVERYONE in central midfield in the league over the past 7-8 years, his pretty much worst year in terms of goals/assists is about equal to Gerrards best, his best is miles ahead of Gerrards.

Anyway, at least Opta when they do their index, they DO rank stats(and this changes frequently as Opta, other index's and managers all change what they think is important on a basically yearly basis as they look for the "moneyball" stats to run a team), assists and goals would be significantly higher weighted in the final score than aerial duals, and maybe they do or don't, but aerial duals should also factor in how many won balls go to a team mate, one player might win 5 but all 5 go to a team mate, another player might win 30, but not a single one gets to a team mate, so even if one player wins less, its more worthwhile knocking him the ball in the end.

Here the points are arbitrary, so yes on a completely arbitrary points system(which completely negates the possibility of a player being the best all around by a mile.... Lampard and Parker, easily for instance), Gerrard is better, when you base the scoring on, winning the ball in the final third... but not turning this into anything, and winning a few headers all season which may or may not have been useful at all.

Stat's are fine, arbitrary scoring and comparisons are useless.
 
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I heard he was asked to fill in for those left injured rather than as 1st choice (in the squad), so fair play to him that he told 'em where go

It's a good job others don't do the same or we would only be sending 11 players. I understand his frustration if he was played completely out of position like scholes but other than that it's a bit childish that because he wasn't first choice he wouldn't play. He should have taken his chance and showed why he is better than the other gash.
 
To be fair, with England - as long as we win I can't say I care too much about performances. I'd take a load of boring 1-0 wins in the Euros than losing 1-0 and playing brilliant football. Any injuries to key players in the first few games and we're ****** though :p
 
Hope Barry is out of the tournament that would be the best new from an average match yesterday. Johnson needs to go instead of Downing as well.
 
England were pretty dull. I don't see the point in playing Gerrard as a normal midfielder, he's not very good there and Lampard has played really well there recently. I know Lampard wasn't available last night but obviously now Gerrard's captain he can't drop him anyway. He should've been sent off for his stupid unnecessary lunge, and the fact the Norweigan guy had to go off injured illustrates perfectly why those tackles shouldn't be allowed even if you do get the ball.
 
Defending and counter attacking is what a lot of the best international sides are doing mow, Germany, Holland etc. It's a good tactic for internationals
 
Hope Barry is out of the tournament that would be the best new from an average match yesterday. Johnson needs to go instead of Downing as well.

Why does downing get in the squad before Johnson? Is Johnson a bad trainer disruptive or something ? Same story for man city iirc :confused:
 
It's a good job others don't do the same or we would only be sending 11 players. I understand his frustration if he was played completely out of position like scholes but other than that it's a bit childish that because he wasn't first choice he wouldn't play. He should have taken his chance and showed why he is better than the other gash.

depends on who you are being compared to I guess

I guess he thinks he has better things to do than wait on a phone call to possibly replace someone in a team with a nothing manager, in a team (especially after last night) who dont look like doing much anyway.

Why make yourself available somewhere you arent necessarily wanted in the 1st place (totally different if you are thougt to be part of the core squad players, but not chosen for a particular match however)

He might as well rest up for the new season for his club where he is trested with a bit more respect.

England were pretty dull. I don't see the point in playing Gerrard as a normal midfielder, he's not very good there and Lampard has played really well there recently. I know Lampard wasn't available last night but obviously now Gerrard's captain he can't drop him anyway. He should've been sent off for his stupid unnecessary lunge, and the fact the Norweigan guy had to go off injured illustrates perfectly why those tackles shouldn't be allowed even if you do get the ball.

I just cant see Lamapard and Gerrard working well together - after so many attempts have failed previously (even if Lamps is AM and Gerrard is 2nd striker, or vice versa). They both deserve to go, but maybe not start the same games (maybe use them to replace each other , with alternate starts after 60-70 mins)
 
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It always seems to be the way, that the England captain is someone who I wouldn't start, so a player I wouldn't have in the starting line-up is guaranteed a place!

I like Gerrard, but would pick Lampard ahead of him easily. I actually think Milner is a very good player as well, and I would probably try and find a place for him somewhere. Maybe not starting every game, but I think he seem like a very handy player to have at a tournament, the sort of player who no one would think about, but would end up being our best player
 
In recent times Gerrard has been better for England, but based on this season Lampard should definitely start. I think he offers a bit more defensively as well. I also saw no reason in the Norway game as to why Downing was allowed in the squad.

Was anyone watching on ITV? I was getting so annoyed when they were touting AOC as the next big thing/England's saviour. He'd literally had ONE TOUCH.
 
Was anyone watching on ITV? I was getting so annoyed when they were touting AOC as the next big thing/England's saviour. He'd literally had ONE TOUCH.

Yeah, it's concerning really. There's no doubt he has potential but so far he's hardly done anything special (for Arsenal).

We run the risk of putting way too much pressure on him.
 
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