Is English the most logical language?

[GGizmo]

My girlfriend is Polish so I have just embarked on trying to learn it.

I forgot to mention in my last reply. You should consider joining the local Polish club. I'm not Polish but used to go with a friend years ago. It would be good for both you and your girlfriend to go.

Then she'll have people to speak Polish with, and you can gradually get used to hearing it.

They have events and traditional Polish festivals. You might also meet new friends there too.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I don't know why it's so hard for everybody, all you have to do is what my wife does in a foreign country, she speaks slow and puts an 'o' on the end of everything.
It does seem to work.

Hahah! All foreigners seems to speak louder as well.

By the way, I’ve tried Duolingo and I don’t think it’s a good way of learning a language. It implies a certain understanding of the language before you start, which makes no sense. You need to be given the basics, so I can see from that perspective why OP might be confused by Polish.

 

[JRS]

French swearing is interesting.

French swearing/cursing is great.

Then add Catalan into the mix for the south-west. And then add in some silly sod who's gone down there for the rugby league match swearing in English but speaking the rest of the sentence in Yorkshire-accented French, met by me speaking back at him in (affected) Yorkshire-accented English and swearing in the peculiar Catalan/French mix you get around Perpignan.

There was also that time my pa had to explain to a local bar owner in Villelongue what a certain word meant after the guy had gotten into it with an English tourist. Got a bit tricky trying to get across that context was everything, a friend calls another friend a [somewhat vulgar term for a lady's joy department] it's not so bad, when it's said in anger it's somewhat worse.

 

[melmac]

My girlfriend is Polish so I have just embarked on trying to learn it.

I am faced with the same illogical grammatical structures that I remember back from school when we were forced to learn French and German.

It begs the question to me whether English is by far the best language, and by 'the best', I mean the most easy to understand and construct.

For example, in Polish and in many other languages they have masculine and feminine terms. For some unknown reason to me, in Polish, a horse is masculine and a cow is feminine. Ive just learned that if I wanted to say 'one horse' I would have to say Jeden kon whereas if I wanted to say 'one cow' I would have to say Jedna krowa. How in any possible logical argument can you say that you need two separate words to say the number 'one'? It simply is an unnecessary addition.

Im sure English has its oddities too but to my mind there is certainly no odd/illogical grammatical behaviour.

I am sorry but language isn't just a set of rules and a way of speaking, it's a way of thinking too.

You are trying to suggest that other languages are illogical but you have come up with your theory while thinking in English. The only reason that English seems logical to you is that you were brought up speaking English and have learned to "think" that way.

The only way you can possibly present an argument on this is to actually go away and become a fluent speaker in some other languages.

I will save you the trouble though, because actual language experts have already done the work, and, English is one of the hardest languages to learn.

 

[danlightbulb]

I will save you the trouble though, because actual language experts have already done the work, and, English is one of the hardest languages to learn.

Information seems to be highly mixed on the topic. For example:

Is English Easy To Learn For Chinese Speakers?
Is english easy to learn for chinese speakers? English is an easier language to learn. Languages with alphabets can be ‘exercised’ phonetically by learning how the 26 letters sound. The playground video game of ‘C-A-T’ applies to most of the words in the English language. This is not the case in logogram languages like Chinese, where there is no indicator whatsoever of the noise of the logogram by how it looks – you merely need to memorize the image and match it with the right sound. There are something like 3500 characters in Chinese script, and the user will need to learn them all. There is no logic to it, and you cannot work it out – it’s just a laborious memory game.

https://www.importanceoflanguages.com/easiest-language-for-chinese-speakers/


I have spent the morning trying to find information on the best way to start learning a language for beginners, and its hard to find anything conclusive. There are as many opinions, methods and recommendations as there are languages.

Some people slate the apps, others say they work.

i just don't want to waste time.

 

[Raymond Lin]

I have spent the morning trying to find information on the best way to start learning a language for beginners, and its hard to find anything conclusive. There are as many opinions, methods and recommendations as there are languages.

Some people slate the apps, others say they work.

i just don't want to waste time.

As I have mentioned several times and also agreed by others who has done the same…just learn the most common words.

 

[melmac]

Information seems to be highly mixed on the topic. For example:


https://www.importanceoflanguages.com/easiest-language-for-chinese-speakers/


I have spent the morning trying to find information on the best way to start learning a language for beginners, and its hard to find anything conclusive. There are as many opinions, methods and recommendations as there are languages.

Some people slate the apps, others say they work.

i just don't want to waste time.

The link you quoted does not change what I said or boost your argument. English is still one of the hardest languages to learn. It's one of the most illogical. Finnish and Chinese are two others that are very hard to learn but for different reasons than why English is hard to learn.

The quickest way to learn a language is to live it, totally immerse yourself in it. Like you are trying to learn Polish, well, watch polish TV, listen to polish radio, only have conversations in polish with your girlfriend etc. etc. Speak it as much as possible.

Do that in conjunction with what @Raymond Lin and others have been saying in this thread about learning the most common words and you should learn the language pretty quickly.

 

[danlightbulb]

As I have mentioned several times and also agreed by others who has done the same…just learn the most common words.

Do that in conjunction with what @Raymond Lin and others have been saying in this thread about learning the most common words and you should learn the language pretty quickly.

Do you know of any existing apps or courses that would do that though? Its a minefield out there.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Do you know of any existing apps or courses that would do that though? Its a minefield out there.

https://www.101languages.net/polish/most-common-polish-words/

 

[danlightbulb]

https://www.101languages.net/polish/most-common-polish-words/

Thanks. I'm really unsure though on this approach. Drilling words from lists day in day out for weeks and months? Its what we did in school and didn't work very well for me, its relentless monotony. The first 100 words in that list still don't contain any nouns. If I learn them I still won't be able to string a sentence together that means anything.

 

[Terminal_Boy]

French swearing/cursing is great.

Then add Catalan into the mix for the south-west. And then add in some silly sod who's gone down there for the rugby league match swearing in English but speaking the rest of the sentence in Yorkshire-accented French, met by me speaking back at him in (affected) Yorkshire-accented English and swearing in the peculiar Catalan/French mix you get around Perpignan.

There was also that time my pa had to explain to a local bar owner in Villelongue what a certain word meant after the guy had gotten into it with an English tourist. Got a bit tricky trying to get across that context was everything, a friend calls another friend a [somewhat vulgar term for a lady's joy department] it's not so bad, when it's said in anger it's somewhat worse.

Ah, Occitanie! Tarn & Garonne is the neighbouring Department and all the town/village signs have the name in Occitanie written below the French name. Very close to Basque, I believe.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Thanks. I'm really unsure though on this approach. Drilling words from lists day in day out for weeks and months? Its what we did in school and didn't work very well for me, its relentless monotony. The first 100 words in that list still don't contain any nouns. If I learn them I still won't be able to string a sentence together that means anything.

You are STILL fighting it…I mean go sign up a course and trying to learn how to pass exams if learning to speak to communicate isn't what you are after.

What is it you are after? Really?

Also, think about this, do you think a 3 year old learn language by learning grammar first or do you think they learn by their parents going "Apple", "Cow" whilst pointing at pictures?

Or is it "honey, these are the structure, there are verb, adjectives and nouns."

 

[danlightbulb]

You are STILL fighting it…I mean go sign up a course and trying to learn how to pass exams if learning to speak to communicate isn't what you are after.

It just feels to me like there should be a better way. Kids don't learn English by reciting lists of words do they. I agree with whoever mentioned immersion but you can't immerse yourself in Polish tv or books without knowing the basics first or it will just sound like garble. Are those words on that list the basic words you would teach a toddler?

 

[Nitefly]

English is riddled with phrases that make no literal sense even though we all know what they mean.

“Go down the road”
“Be on time”
“Watch out”
“Under the weather”

 

[Raymond Lin]

It just feels to me like there should be a better way. Kids don't learn English by reciting lists of words do they. I agree with whoever mentioned immersion but you can't immerse yourself in Polish tv or books without knowing the basics first or it will just sound like garble. Are those words on that list the basic words you would teach a toddler?

Kids don't learn to speak by trying to pass exams and learning all these rules. They learn the common words by day to day immersion and then gets corrected as they go along.

A 5 year old can ask for what she wants for dinner just as well as an 21 year old with a degree in English from Oxford.

 

[Raymond Lin]

English is riddled with phrases that make no literal sense even though we all know what they mean.

“Go down the road”
“Be on time”
“Watch out”
“Under the weather”

So sick bro! SICK!

 

[Voltar]

I reckon OP could have learned most if not all of the most common 100 words in the time he’s spent in this thread.

Just learn it OP stop procrastinating

repetition and learning- not much else to it if you apply yourself

 

[Lopéz]

Thanks. I'm really unsure though on this approach. Drilling words from lists day in day out for weeks and months? Its what we did in school and didn't work very well for me, its relentless monotony. The first 100 words in that list still don't contain any nouns. If I learn them I still won't be able to string a sentence together that means anything.

Think about ordering a beer.

You need to communicate that you would like a beer, let's say one large beer.

Using your "building blocks" analogy, you are going to need one word at a minimum :

Beer

If you do not know the word for beer, then it's a non starter isn't it?

"Pivo"

Great, now you can rudely order a beer.
Let's enhance that.

A beer please. We need another word, "prosim"

"Pivo, prosim"

Okay, great - still pretty basic.
Let's ask for it a bit more conversationally.
I'd like a large beer please, have you got Stupavar?

"Prosim velke pivo, mate Stupavar?"

Great, now you can fully order a beer. But to be honest, just "pivo" would have done.

LEARN. WORDS. FOR. THINGS.

 

[Raymond Lin]

Think about ordering a beer.

You need to communicate that you would like a beer, let's say one large beer.

Using your "building blocks" analogy, you are going to need one word at a minimum :

Beer

If you do not know the word for beer, then it's a non starter isn't it?

"Pivo"

Great, now you can rudely order a beer.
Let's enhance that.

A beer please. We need another word, "prosim"

"Pivo, prosim"

Okay, great - still pretty basic.
Let's ask for it a bit more conversationally.
I'd like a large beer please, have you got Stupavar?

"Prosim velke pivo, mate Stupavar?"

Great, now you can fully order a beer. But to be honest, just "pivo" would have done.

LEARN. WORDS. FOR. THINGS.

Exactly! And if you are there as a tourist, imagine sitting there mumbling in English, and the barman clearly know you are foreign and going on about in English but don't know what you are saying. If you manage to even say "Pivo", that's good enough for him and he will probably be impressed and glad that you managed it. The fact that you didn't say please is irrelevant at this moment.

If you had known the structure of how to string together a sentence in Polish at a degree level will not help you at all at this point if you didn't know the word for beer.

 

[danlightbulb]

Exactly! And if you are there as a tourist, imagine sitting there mumbling in English, and the barman clearly know you are foreign and going on about in English but don't know what you are saying. If you manage to even say "Pivo", that's good enough for him and he will probably be impressed and glad that you managed it. The fact that you didn't say please is irrelevant at this moment.

If you had known the structure of how to string together a sentence in Polish at a degree level will not help you at all at this point if you didn't know the word for beer.

That's fair enough. I don't know how far down the list of words the word 'beer' is though. So it's like learning thousands of words when in any situation you might only need a handful. Maybe there is no way around it.

What is it you are after? Really?

I suppose the ideal situation would be to absorb the language passively over time rather than forcing it.

Or, failing that, word lists need to have some structure to them like basic first followed by more advanced. Or lists of basic foods or lists of basic other groups. Can't seem to find that.