Is English the most logical language?

[Raymond Lin]

understanding is not the problem for me at all. But my brain gets fried when switching language multiple times within a short span of time when talking to different people.
the joys of when your own family barely speaks english and my other half doesn't speak german.

Have you tried watching a foreign language film in one of your other languages (German?) and then at the same time talk to someone in the room in English or go online and read in English?

Like I can watch Kung Fu Hustle and not read the subtitles whilst listening to whats going on the screen I can check my phone (at home not at the cinema!).

 

[danlightbulb]

This is a bonkers thread... Nobody could ever seriously suggest English is the most logical language... except someone who spoke English as a native and hasnt compared to other languages.

Well, yes and no I think. I started the thread and have come round to some new ideas because of it, which is great.

But at the same time there are still some objectivity factors where English is obviously more logical than other languages.

For example, gendered words. There is no logical explanation why some languages use gendered words, they just do.

Hopefully as I get more experienced in Polish my brain will click and I will be able to speak in the language without thinking as has been described by others. We shall see whether my brain is capable of that, as my whole consciousness, thinking and logic structure seems to revolve around the English structure.

 

[Jean-F]

I simply cannot make some of the sounds. Like rolling my R's, or the nasally sounds, or this one is particularly problematic for me at the moment: Cześć.

I also don't like my accent generally (blackcountry) and it feels very silly to be making some of these, well I can only describe them as grunts or noises really, not articulated sounds.

I started off saying cześć as shesh, but my Polish girlfriend’s kid brother said that it was more like chesst, she agreed that chesst was closer than shesh, but told me not to get confused with Częstochowa, the city in central Poland, pronounced as chestahovva.
I’m not particularly enamoured of a Black Country accent either but does it really inhibit you in pronouncing foreign words?
My accent can be described as not strong, but working class Cockney, but I am easily understood in France.

 

[dr_volki]

Have you tried watching a foreign language film in one of your other languages (German?) and then at the same time talk to someone in the room in English or go online and read in English?

Like I can watch Kung Fu Hustle and not read the subtitles whilst listening to whats going on the screen I can check my phone (at home not at the cinema!).

yeah it's no problem. usually even point out the dodgy subtitles
it's probably just a me thing getting confused between languages.

 

[finga]

I started off saying cześć as shesh, but my Polish girlfriend’s kid brother said that it was more like chesst, she agreed that chesst was closer than shesh, but told me not to get confused with Częstochowa, the city in central Poland, pronounced as chestahovva.
I’m not particularly enamoured of a Black Country accent either but does it really inhibit you in pronouncing foreign words?
My accent can be described as not strong, but working class Cockney, but I am easily understood in France.

Czesc is a simple one, try chrzczenie (christening)

 

[Jean-F]

Czesc is a simple one, try chrzczenie (christening)

That’s baptism, christening is chrzest, but I’m not going to try either them, I know my limits.
I’m still smarting from when I thanked a woman in Poznań by saying “dziękuję panu” (thank you sir),
instead of ”dziękuję pani”, (thank you ma’am).

 

[finga]

That’s baptism, christening is chrzest, but I’m not going to try either them, I know my limits.
I’m still smarting from when I thanked a woman in Poznań by saying “dziękuję panu” (thank you sir),
instead of ”dziękuję pani”, (thank you ma’am).

nah, its christening. My kids were both christened in Poland and thats on the invitation cards so Im gonna assume the Poles know better than google translate

 

[Jean-F]

nah, its christening. My kids were both christened in Poland and thats on the invitation cards so Im gonna assume the Poles know better than google translate

I won’t argue with that, but I put both both words in notes on my phone, and showed them to a 40 something Polish woman on the checkout in Waitrose, Canary Wharf, asking what they meant.
She said that chrzczenie is Christening, but that chrzest is often used for baptism and/or Christening, so I make myself half right, but I concede that you know what you’re talking about if your kids were Christened in Poland.
The only Church that I went in over there was Katedra Wawelska, (Wawel Cathedral), in Kraków, where some of Polands Kings and Queens from the past were crowned or buried.
One of them had the same name as my girlfriend, Jadwiga, Queen Jadwiga was the first female monarch of Poland.

 

[Geodude97AD]

Wait, aren't cows female in English and bulls male? Similar to dog and bitch

A cattle farmer would likely leave you with a list of different words of cattle bases on their use for such animals.

 

[Werewolf]

A cattle farmer would likely leave you with a list of different words of cattle bases on their use for such animals.

Terry Pratchett had some fun with that sort of thing (as he did with so many things) when referring to Swamp Dragons in the Discworld books, where he based the naming of the different stages of growth for them on the sort of naming convention used for horses and the like.

 

[Angilion]

A cattle farmer would likely leave you with a list of different words of cattle bases on their use for such animals.

That used to be the case with horses. Palfrey, courser, destrier, sumpter and rounsey are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. That's going back a bit, though, and they weren't specifically gendered words.

There are a few remnants of gendered language in English, but only a few.

 

[4K8KW10]

Question - can I use such a structure asking a colleague to do something - May you please do that...?

I see that most answers in Google search oppose it as being not correct because May according to them means asking for a permission?

But what if the above structure is used exactly for having a permission to do that...?


If your coworker keeps sending emails saying “May you please,” do something, would you tell her that “may you please” is not proper English?
Actually in some English dialects, it is quite common to use that phrase. It is also not incorrect English. It is used a lot in Africa and I’m sure in other places. Since you Understand what is being said, and since the coworker is being very polite, there is no need to impose your opinions on them.
Why do some people say “may you please”? - Quora

 

[Feef]

"May you" is not in itself incorrect grammar, when the "you" is taken to mean "one" (and thus sounding a bit archaic). Using it in a request like that however, it should be could.

I'm not proscriptive at all about English and grammar, and am very much of the belief that if you've effectively communicated your meaning, then no problem, but "may you please" makes my head hurt, as its just a case of using a different verb.

 

[4K8KW10]

"May you" is not in itself incorrect grammar, when the "you" is taken to mean "one" (and thus sounding a bit archaic). Using it in a request like that however, it should be could.

I'm not proscriptive at all about English and grammar, and am very much of the belief that if you've effectively communicated your meaning, then no problem, but "may you please" makes my head hurt, as its just a case of using a different verb.

The thing is that the English "May" is the closest to the "Móc" as is in Polish but also in "Možno" (Slovak) and "Может" (Russian).
For Slavic people, it is naturally comfortable to use "may" and not "can".

"Can" means a physical ability, while "may" expresses desire, wish.

So, "May you please" is perfectly fine and you should use it.

Have you heard the joke when a student asks their teacher:
Student: -Can I go to the bathroom?
Teacher: -Can you? Of course, you can.

Which is just stupid.

 

[FoxEye]

English really isn't all that logical. We can't even be consistent with the way our words sound.

Tasting, wasting vs fasting, lasting. Etc, etc.

Why the heck is "quay" pronounced "key"?

 

[Angilion]

The thing is that the English "May" is the closest to the "Móc" as is in Polish but also in "Možno" (Slovak) and "Может" (Russian).
For Slavic people, it is naturally comfortable to use "may" and not "can".

"Can" means a physical ability, while "may" expresses desire, wish.

So, "May you please" is perfectly fine and you should use it.

Have you heard the joke when a student asks their teacher:
Student: -Can I go to the bathroom?
Teacher: -Can you? Of course, you can.

Which is just stupid.

"would you please" works fine in that context and is English English. "may you please" presumably works fine in other dialects of English, but it definitely isn't English English.

 

[Angilion]

English really isn't all that logical. We can't even be consistent with the way our words sound.

Tasting, wasting vs fasting, lasting. Etc, etc.

It's common for a language to have short and long vowels. It could be argued that English is a bit illogical in not labelling which is which. Although that varies in different English accents, let alone dialects, so labelling it would cause regional hassle.

My guess would be that some of it depends on the root language. Arguably more than half(*) of modern English words come from a different language.

Why the heck is "quay" pronounced "key"?

Got me there.

I'm always inclined the blame the great vowel shift, but that is a bit lazy. It's not to blame for all the oddities of spelling in English.

Having a quick look online, it seems to be the mashing together of languages thing. It's derived primarily from Common Brittonic and the older extant English spellings ('key', 'keye') from Middle English match the pronunciation. It was later influenced by the French word 'quai', which changed the spelling in English but not the pronunciation.




* More than half of all modern English words come from another language, but most of the more commonly used words don't. So in terms of actual usage it's less than half.

 

[MikeTimbers]

The English spelling of this word was originally key, and that's one way to pronounce it even today, an alternative to "qway." Quay comes from the Old North French cai, "sand bank." The change of spelling in the late 17th century was influenced by the modern French spelling quai.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

What about cheque?

As an aside, I signed up for a website a while ago where they connect you with people who want to speak to you in English and they speak your preferred language - French in my case. Spoke to a guy yesterday for an hour in English/French. His English was brilliant. My French was really lacking, so I desperately need to practice!

 

[Blackjack Davy]

That used to be the case with horses. Palfrey, courser, destrier, sumpter and rounsey are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. That's going back a bit, though, and they weren't specifically gendered words.

There are a few remnants of gendered language in English, but only a few.

Boar and sow, etc. Dog was the original form for a male hound bitch for female which is still used for related animals i.e. a dog fox (but not vixen)

Whats more interesting is the different forms for the same thing like rear and raise or yea/yes or nay/no. You rear animals but you raise your kids the reason is one derives from old norse the other from old english a lot of farmyard expressions derive from norse "muck" (dung) and even "dirt" (from drit, change dr to sh and you get the english equivalent)

The English spelling of this word was originally key, and that's one way to pronounce it even today, an alternative to "qway." Quay comes from the Old North French cai, "sand bank." The change of spelling in the late 17th century was influenced by the modern French spelling quai.

I thought as much the answer with a lot of these illogical spellings is they derive from french like "theatre" which is directly from french and preserves the spelling but not the pronunciation (americans spell it as "theater" which is closer to the english pronunciation)

What about cheque?

As an aside, I signed up for a website a while ago where they connect you with people who want to speak to you in English and they speak your preferred language - French in my case. Spoke to a guy yesterday for an hour in English/French. His English was brilliant. My French was really lacking, so I desperately need to practice!

Cheque is from italian I think? Venetian bankers invented much of the banking system we use today iirc (americans use check instead)