Is the situation really this bad?

malachi said:
Looking at it, the more senior/experience you have. The more likely you are going to get binned off or looked over for hiring.

Yeah, hire juniors because its cheaper for the company and you get more out of them. Just like outsourcing a team to India, instead of keeping them in the UK.
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Ultra-senior folk may get looked over because they cost too much but in general there is a range of roles available at different levels. When I was hiring I hired at different levels.
It's harder to retain junior staff unless you are an org than can offer fast progression. As a manager you are sometimes faced with the reality that if you hire someone on the lower end, you won't get the budget signoff to promote them in a timely fashion so they just up and leave and you are left hiring again.
It's a bit paradoxical that by making decent salary increases harder to achieve, some orgs are incentivising hiring managers to bring people in on high initial salaries because then they will be OK with the inflationary yearly rise as they know it isn't straightforward to get a better paid job elsewhere.
 
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Classic nonsense from a recruiter today, I changed my LinkedIn profile at the weekend as I was starting a new job today. First job I've had with title of X.

So I get this message this afternoon asking if I'm interested in another job with title X. In the blurb it explictly states in the list of their requirements, literally the first point listed "extensive experience in a X role". At the point the message was sent I had less than a full day of experience :)
I mean, a 10 second glance at my history would have shown that I started my current role in July.

If this scattergun approach is being used, there can't be that big a glut of candidates to roles in some sectors, surely?
 
They're just commission hunters doing broad searches on key words don't sweat it. Just a numbers game with them.

You need to engage with recruiters to vibe check & filter the good ones so you can build contacts, then float your name when you need a spot. Purge the not so useful ones who add nothing to you monthly.
 
HangTime said:
Classic nonsense from a recruiter today, I changed my LinkedIn profile at the weekend as I was starting a new job today. First job I've had with title of X.

So I get this message this afternoon asking if I'm interested in another job with title X. In the blurb it explictly states in the list of their requirements, literally the first point listed "extensive experience in a X role". At the point the message was sent I had less than a full day of experience :)
I mean, a 10 second glance at my history would have shown that I started my current role in July.

If this scattergun approach is being used, there can't be that big a glut of candidates to roles in some sectors, surely?
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I got it as a junior, hey you'd be a fit for this role! 3 years experience with Java and i'm like... wut? My forte is frontend web dev, perhaps he confused JavaScript and Java.

I also clearly list on linked in and my CV at the top what i'm decent at.
 
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peterwalkley said:
I agree with his take on the situation.
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Yeah that's a pretty good vid,

A few years back in the US, the interviews we were trained to deliver, put the emphasis on the candidate, rather than the question - as in the questions were designed to let a candidate do or say whatever they liked to fit the narrative.

For example, a favourite question of mine is: "Can you tell me about a time, where you came across a problem you couldn't solve, how you dealt with it and the process you went through to finally solve it"

The emphasis is all on the candidate to make them think, articulate and explain a difficult situation - which tells you a HELL of a lot about somebody, both technically and as a person.
 
I've been observing how companies are using the current job market situation to shamelessly lowball salaries in their job ads. They're jumping at the chance to get some desperate devs which they otherwise couldn't afford. I am certain this will lead to another Great Resignation as soon as things pick up again. They just never learn.
 
AndyCr15 said:
Well, tbf, didn't it go the other way about 12 months back? Are you sure they aren't just returning to the previous levels?
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The only difference now, inflation is hitting people. Companies are low balling offers but people are not going for it. Knowing they are going to be financially worse off. They are happy to sit back and wait for better opportunities.

The market maybe bad but people are not desperate.
 
malachi said:
The only difference now, inflation is hitting people. Companies are low balling offers but people are not going for it. Knowing they are going to be financially worse off. They are happy to sit back and wait for better opportunities.

The market maybe bad but people are not desperate.
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I saw a post from a recruiter on Linkedin yesterday:

Salesforce Snr Consultant - Boutique Salesforce Partner
London based 1x week - £55-70k

Salesforce Product Owner - Automotive company
Bristol based 1x a week - £60-70k

Salesforce Administrator - Manufacturing company
Swindon based 1x a week - £40-50k

Salesforce Technical Architect - Telecommunications company
Bristol based 1-2x a week - Brand new Salesforce programme
£90-110k

Salesforce Administrator - FinTech company
London based 2x a week - You will own Salesforce!
£40-45k

All of those roles would have been 10-20% higher salary bandings this time last year, as a minimum.
 
Lopéz said:
All of those roles would have been 10-20% higher salary bandings this time last year, as a minimum.
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Yes, when they were all really high? 10-20% drop doesn't sound too bad? I guess we need two year and three year ago rates for a full picture?
malachi said:
The market maybe bad but people are not desperate.
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I guess I think it works itself out. If it is too low, no-one takes the roles and they HAVE to offer more to fill them. (Like happened a year ago when the rates were sky rocketing) If they fill them at that rate, maybe it's the right amount?
 
The issue with filling roles on a low salary is most orgs aren't setup to allow for large in-role salary adjustments so if the market picks up then they lose the staff as they lack the agility to respond quick enough to changes in labour market conditions. They'll have arbitrary constraints like percentage caps on how much salary is allowed to be incremented without a promotion etc. The "works itself out" equilibrium is a kind of one-way street to some extent, because people on high salaries don't quit when the market is cold, but they do quit when the market is hot. It's an imperfect market in that regard because it's much harder for an employer to terminate an overpaid employee than it is for an underpaid employee to dispense with their employer.
 
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AndyCr15 said:
Yes, when they were all really high? 10-20% drop doesn't sound too bad? I guess we need two year and three year ago rates for a full picture?

I guess I think it works itself out. If it is too low, no-one takes the roles and they HAVE to offer more to fill them. (Like happened a year ago when the rates were sky rocketing) If they fill them at that rate, maybe it's the right amount?
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Yes, I'd say the peak was around 2 years ago (in my industry at least) then there was a slight drop post CovidBoom™, and now advertised salaries are back around where they were 3-4 years ago. Of course if you have been in role gaining experience during that time there's a natural tendency to feel that your salary or worth should be increasing, which people find hard to equate with lower salary offerings driven by economic downturn and resulting lack of demand.

That's how it feels anyway, it's difficult to get reliable and verified historical (or current) data to support that feeling.

I've gone and really complicated this by moving to a country where salaries are generally higher than the UK, but where my particular industry is in a less mature market overall which totally throws everything out of the window.

I'm still not living off stale bread and water so overall it could be a lot worse. I just feel more vulnerable than I have in the last 10 years or so of my career, which is uncomfortable when I'm conversely at my most experienced/qualified etc.
 
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Lopéz said:
I just feel more vulnerable than I have in the last 10 years or so of my career, which is uncomfortable when I'm conversely at my most experienced/qualified etc.
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A possible explanation for that is as you gain experience/qualifications and progress your career, you have 'more to lose' and there are fewer equivalent positions around. If you lose a job stacking shelves in Asda you can get a job stacking shelves in Tesco. If you lose a job as 'Supreme Czar of Thingumywotsits" it's not as straightforward to replace even if you are now a respected authority on Thingumywotsits.

I had a period during the Great Resignation where I was struggling to get the sort of position I wanted because the sort of jobs I saw myself in were evolving to need a more technical slant compared to a few years prior (i.e. my particular niche was looking more and more for hands-on technical leaders rather than hybrid expertise across business and tech). This meant the pool of jobs I could take to realistically progress my career was even smaller, compounding the fact it was already smaller than when I was 'lower down the pyramid'.
I can't say I've particularly noticed an issue on the salary front though, in my sector it's more that there are fewer jobs advertised but the salaries remain 'elevated'. The job I just started doesn't pay any less than I'd have expected 2 years ago, I'd say it's probably 10-20% higher salary, although I guess if you factor in inflation it might have dropped very slightly in real terms.
 
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HangTime said:
Classic nonsense from a recruiter today, I changed my LinkedIn profile at the weekend as I was starting a new job today. First job I've had with title of X.

So I get this message this afternoon asking if I'm interested in another job with title X. In the blurb it explictly states in the list of their requirements, literally the first point listed "extensive experience in a X role". At the point the message was sent I had less than a full day of experience :)
I mean, a 10 second glance at my history would have shown that I started my current role in July.

If this scattergun approach is being used, there can't be that big a glut of candidates to roles in some sectors, surely?
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I get a dozen a month and gave up with the WTF responses and just ignore them now.

I have access to all of the LinkedIn licences, not least a recruiter licence and I still don't know why they do this. Tools are there to do it properly but no, scatter gun messages about utterly irrelevant roles.

"This could be the career move and progression you need to move to the next level....." Then followed by an annual package that represents an expenses claim. :D
 
After a brutal 8 month marathon I got an offer in mid July from a Big Evil Bank. 3 months of back and forth later the offer was withdrawn because of "hiring freeze"... So this is the end. I wish a damn war started in this country already, at least that way the system would be too busy with that instead of grinding down the people.
 
War chest must be getting low after 8 months. Lower your salary range to get in somewhere or reskill. If your niche is anything project managementy you'll struggle in this environment
 
neverminder said:
After a brutal 8 month marathon I got an offer in mid July from a Big Evil Bank. 3 months of back and forth later the offer was withdrawn because of "hiring freeze"... So this is the end. I wish a damn war started in this country already, at least that way the system would be too busy with that instead of grinding down the people.
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Grinding down - the great reset and it seems a Bully's Brexit Bonus is just how bad it is.

Last year it was difficult finding a new gig, then a contract came through that paid through the nose to solve a problem. 6 months later and the finances were back on track and I opted to move back to perm to a role in a large company that doesn't seem to know what it wants or if it wants to finance it. Essentially it's down to the old - deliver something without a budget. As an FTE the role and the orangisation are underwhelming compared to the speed and focus of the previous roles I've had. I've put the feelers out without really actively driving, with some contact but just reading between the lines most are just qualifying for their own records and nothing todo with actually delivering anything.
Got a reorg coming, specifically senior management are trying to drive change but as always large bad legacy and lack of modern organisational operations means I think there will be optimisations - cards close to their chests and senior staff asking for input into their own suggestions as there's a general lack of understanding really I think is a stay of execution. I hear people, people, people.. was the tag line.. but people don't want it.. both internally and externally.
 
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