Is the SSD idea all its made out to be?

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First of all I am not here to create a flame or to annoy, just to pose the question. We are told to invest in the latest technology because it is faster and more reliable.
Up until now many PC users have only dealt with Mechanical Hard drives, when it comes to memory they look to the RAM on the Motherboard and perhaps a FLash Drive memory stick. Everyone is familiar with a flash drive and how to erase it and write over it again and again. We depend on it to store our images wen taking photos. And we often get tired of the stuff when it fails to save our data.
On a mechanical Hard disk we are used to antivirus and system security scanning our environment to check for viruses and Bots, and of course the good old disk defragmenter which stops the disk getting clogged up with unnecessary files which lower the performance of the system.
Nobody says much about defragmentation but it still happens with an SSD. In Operating systems like Windows 7 and 8 we are led to believe that Trim takes care of that instead of the old defragmenter. Perhaps in Windows 8 it does but Windows 7 only sets the queue command for it, the disk defragmenter is almost identical to Windows Vista.
So are you right to be worried when they throw all these disclaimers and precautionaries at you when your system is working quite efficiently under a mechanical system. The problem is that with so many different SSD controllers and the newer systems having issue with the older controllers why should you trust the SSD memory controller if it may conflict with a new system if you upgrade in future?
After all your Mechanical drive being Sata 2 at least is compatible with all systems currently available including the SATA 6 contolled systems. Some SSD Drives will not run on Haswell builds because they are not compatible with the early Sandforce contoller or Indilinyx controller. You know what they say, When is a Drive not a drive? When it becomes a brick of course.
Are these new drives produced soley for the new Operating Systems?
Not really, I remember seeing the PCI versions arrive back in 2000 which were then transposed to work in PCI-Express systems, so the technology is not new but the downsizing is. First they appeared in 3.5 inch format and then in 2.5 inch format. On a mechanical hard disk you can see and even change the controller card so you can retrieve data if the Controller goes down. You don't even need the same sized disk controller to retrieve data just an old hard disk with the same controller chipset on it. The new units are sealed and have only the power and data connectors protruding.
They say your SSD should give you many years of use but like anything today it is only garunteed for a year or so. I have heard of many a brick in newer drives both Mechanical and SSD within the last few years. Some people throw caution to the wind in order to see what others are getting out of the new hardware. Naturally as consumer choice increases so will the facilities at the users fingertips. But the lack of an inbuilt Trim (garbage collection system) for those Operating systems which do not fully support it limits the user base. Some people are still using XP and Vista and some MacBooks don't support Trim also. As the drives become larger they will have to cater for the system index or have a variable cache.

You have to be cautious when money is tight and selling a brick may be alright for a housebuilder but is useless to a system builder.
 
I was using a (volatile) solid state drive in the mid 80s so the basic technology is very old (70s I think for the first ones).

There is NO requirement for them - but they're nice to have. This is a forum for overclockers - people who want the fastest computers, and SSDs are part of that challenge.
 
and of course the good old disk defragmenter which stops the disk getting clogged up with unnecessary files which lower the performance of the system.

The defragmenter does not prevent unnecessary files clogging up a mechanical drive. It makes sure files on the drive are not fragmented (split up and stored at different physical locations on the disc).
 
The problem is that with so many different SSD controllers and the newer systems having issue with the older controllers why should you trust the SSD memory controller if it may conflict with a new system if you upgrade in future?

I would be suprised if any of the modern (and popular) SSD controllers will have any compatibility issues with SATA ports on future motherboards. It's as much the responsibility of the motherboard and chipset designer to make sure SSDs (and HDDs for that matter) are compatible with their products as it is for SSD chipset designers to makle sure their products will work with most, or all SATA ports.

You have to trust that manufacturers of PC hardware will provide compatibility, otherwise you may aswell buy an iMac.

I`ve had no problems withh SSD compatibility (so far), but I have a horror story about an Nvidia graphics card that I own.
 
The ram drive is old technology but in its present state used in as serial technology is vastly different to the early 80's version. This forum is for computer entheusiasts whom are also customers of Overclockers Co. UK and not a strictly overclockers forum.
Information technology is always pushing the boundaries but it is the consumer electronics division which drives all other sectors. SSD's were originally used in military class computers where temperature tolerances differ. This why you get the military standards used in SSD's today.
I began this thread not to create a flame and you seem to like to try to flame the thread. The point I made at the top of the thread was that with all the precautionary measures and the measure of fragility you get when they are mentioned, is somehow counter productive. About the only OS which fully supports them is Windows 8. Windows 7 has the command set but doesn't truly employ them.
To understand that you have to understand how data is stored on an SSD. All the user sees is a data cluster in analysis. Then you have the data controller which controls reading and writing. The other issue is that the data has to be stored in a charged state. Unlike old Ram drives they lost their data when powered down completely.
Current drives are supposed to hold their data for at least a year without any power to them. Some drives even reset to factory setup after a power cycle which can be disasterous if the data isn't backed up.

But show me where this forum says it is for Overclockers. Or is it that you have misinterpeted the forum. Do you overclock a camera in the camera's forum. But it is safe to say there is a forum for most categories. This is storage and you don't overclock storage- do you.
 
I'm not sure that I, or the other respondant has "flamed" this thread, we`ve just passed on our thoughts (and corrected you on what defragmenting means).

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. It seems that you are questioning the wisdom of purchasing and using an SSD.

You stated "We are told to invest in the latest technology because it is faster and more reliable."

Well, we are not told that we have to invest in the latest technology (in this case, SSDs). It is widely known that SSDs are indeed faster than the technology that they replace (much faster). I strongly recommend SSDs to my customers, because of the speed advantage they offer. Reliability of SSDs vs HDDs seems to be fairly favourable. I don't think anyone is claiming that SSDs never fail, but my experience is that they are "reliable", having installed more than just a few over the past 3 years.

You mentioned something about Windows 7 not fully supporting Trim, only setting the command queue for it. All I can say is that I have never experienced any issue with this "problem", if indeed it is a problem.

I consider SSDs to be the best single component that you can choose when either building a PC or upgrading one. Like all other components, they can fail and (very) occasionally suffer from compatibility issues. However, IMHO, the SSD idea is pretty much everything it's made out to be. I`ve got 4 to install over the next week or two. Yes, I warn my customer's that SSDs, like HDDs can fail, so important data should always be backuped up.
 
Who's flaming? Not me :)

I'm saying that this forum was supplied for people who overclock first and foremost. Over the years it has evolved into what it is today, but by far the majority of users are "above" standard consumers so look for the very best.

As it happens, I've not overclocked anything in years. Well except cars.

Of course technology has moved on, but the basic premise between the earliest solid state drives and todays is the same. They don't need a battery any more to keep the data, and the capacity is several orders of magnitude higher, but they still achieve the same thing - fast for the time data storage and retrieval. The biggest change is the non-volatility.

Same with spinning drives. It's nice these days to have drives that don't need their own housings and you don't have to manually park before you turn them off, but essentially they're the same still. I still use my 20mb hard drive with my beebs - that thing makes some noise when it's spinning up :D
 
I appologise to anyone else whom thought that my response was aimed at them but at the time I was typing to the second respondent in the thread I was referring to his term of SSD and that this was a forum soley for overclocking. In defragmenting a hard drive you can defragment both applications and in a second form of defragment you can move data. The general idea is to move data and applications for optimum access. The problems occur when you cannot zero a segment because it may store the tag for an EOF which could be as little as 10 bytes long but occupy a full cluster segment on the drive.

I have several SSD's myself but have been a bit perturbed by the recent clamour for firmware.
Since when have you been offered a firmware update for a mechanical hard drive?
 
...First of all I am not here to create a flame or to annoy, just to pose the question. We are told to invest in the latest technology because it is faster and more reliable.....

Who is telling you that?

Experienced people will tell you not to do that. The only people telling you do that is people selling and marketing these products, or industries like magazines or website that get income indirectly from it.
 
In defragmenting a hard drive you can defragment both applications and in a second form of defragment you can move data. The general idea is to move data and applications for optimum access.

Sorry, but this explanation isn't entirely clear.

As far as I understand it......

The first form of defragmentaion is the moving the arrangement of data on the hard disc in order that files that have been split into two or more pieces are "joined" together again. This reduces the requirement for the drive's heads to move to several locations on the disc when accessing a file, thus eliminating as much "seek" time as possible in order to maximise performance. During this defragmentation process "gaps" between files may also be closed up so that the defragmented files are bunched together as closely as possible. This will reduce the travel of the drive's heads when accessing several files in sequence. This proccess does not differentiate between the types of files being defragmented, and doesn't attempt to optimise the position of files on the disc's layout. Files are simply put back into contiguous chuncks of data and gaps are closed up.

A defragmentation utility may also carry out a secondary proceess to further improve performance. This can be done by arranging files in such an order to gain a further performance improvement. This may involve moving system files (OS files) to the outer tracks of the disc.

I hope this makes sense, and that my understanding is correct.
 
Since when have you been offered a firmware update for a mechanical hard drive?

I believe Samsung (or was it Seagate) have offered new firmware for one of their 2TB drives. It was recommended for the drive to work better in a NAS. Pretty sure it's not the only time a drive has had a firmware update.

Sometimes the firmwares can offer a performance boost, with a HDD performance isn't really the point.
 
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/storage/2010/02/04/windows-7-ssd-performance-and-trim/1

SSDs don't need the same kind of defragmenting that mechanical drives do.

The good news for most SSD users is that they can forget about defragmenting to maintain the (much faster) performance of their SSDs. TRIM takes care of any low level organisation of data on their SSD.

I happen to believe that this is a good thing. Fit and forget.

Yes, you have to make sure your OS issues the Trim command. Windows 7 and 8 do support TRIM, so I don't see a problem. If a customer asks me for an SSD upgrade, or I suggest they upgrade, I always make sure Windows 7 or 8 is installed.
 
You like to stipulate Windows 7 or 8, but versions of Windows like XP and Vista do not support Trim. What do you say to users of these OS's. In fact what are the manufacturers saying?
I do know of Samsung's built in Trim feature along with others it requires an executable or to be idle for at least 10 minutes to clear trash. There are some comng through now with built in trash collection. They are still not completely clear on how they achieve it.
In all fields of computing it pays to backup. If you use a Pre-Trim OS and you get a message which says Disk full, you know you have to do a power recycle and if necessary reformat and restore your backup. So the idea of set and forget is out the window if you have windows Vista and Windows XP.
 
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