Is Torque Overrated ?

L0rdMike · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:29

How much torque does your average superbike have? :confused:

Flukester · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:38

L0rdMike said:
How much torque does your average superbike have?

about 80ft-lbs .......but thats at almost 12500rpm :-)

sure torque is great for punching out of a low speed corner (and matters if your geared quite high), but if your in the right gear and on the power doesn't really matter.

Scania · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:43

Torque is good for pulling wheelies.....

L0rdMike · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:43

Flukester said:
about 80ft-lbs .......but thats at almost 12500rpm

sure torque is great for punching out of a low speed corner (and matters if your geared quite high), but if your in the right gear and on the power doesn't really matter.

Only 80! Bet that thing hardly moves.

St0rmer66 · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:44

Matt82 said:
correct, but youd have to be in 1st gear, hardly normal behavour on the road, so talk some sense

Why is it not normal behaviour? Apart from the fact you shouldn't be racing other cars anyway... if a car makes more power at higher revs, you use the gears to keep it at high revs! That's what gears are for! :confused:

.

Let's say the diesel golf had to be in 2nd gear and the petrol one in 1st to get decent performance.. you saying that the petrol one shouldn't need to use 1st gear ("not normal behaviour") then it's the equivalent of having the diesel golf in 3rd gear instead of 2nd where the performance is best. Bet the diesel one would lag like hell in too higher gear, even worse than the petrol N/A engine, because it would be off boost.

Matt82 · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:48

the power delivery on that motorbike is amazing, after 7k its almost laser cut

stormer, seriously, how often do you change down to 1st gear to get away from a roundabout a bit quicker? if you do you need to have a word with yourself

its hardly worth the effort to keep up with a diesel that youll catch up with by the time youre at the top of 3rd

Begbie · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:54

Matt82 said:
correct, but youd have to be in 1st gear, hardly normal behavour on the road, so talk some sense

And nor is racing, therefore your first scenario doesn't make sense.

St0rmer66 · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:54

Matt82 said:
the power delivery on that motorbike is amazing, after 7k its almost laser cut

stormer, seriously, how often do you change down to 1st gear to get away from a roundabout a bit quicker? if you do you need to have a word with yourself

its hardly worth the effort to keep up with a diesel that youll catch up with by the time youre at the top of 3rd

If traffic was slow enough that I needed to use 1st gear then I would. If it was clear then I probably wouldn't drop my speed low enough that it was needed (because the revs would be high enough).

Not putting the petrol in 1st gear to get the most power possible is like putting the diesel one in too high of a gear too, exactly the same! The fact that it is "1st" gear is irrelevant, it's just a number. It's the same concept if you were in a different situation going 50mph faster and being in 3rd gear because it's faster than 4th.

Matt82 · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:56

Begbie said:
And nor is racing, therefore your first scenario doesn't make sense.

so you cant get your head round one petrol and one diesel car exitting a tight roundabout, both in second, both drivers putting their foot down and the diesel pulling away?

clarkson was right when he said people with no knowledge or understanding or cars shouldnt be allowed to use them

Fr0dders · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:57

my, what a debate this has turned out to be

just shows how much confusion there is as to exactly how much influence torque has.

Matt82 · 28 Oct 2009 at 12:58

St0rmer66 said:
Not putting the petrol in 1st gear to get the most power possible is like putting the diesel one in too high of a gear too, exactly the same!

its not at all, do you actually drive? seriously, try and get a petrol into 1st at 15-20mph+, you need a fairly large H&T style blip to get it in there because of the synchro

i swear half the people here dont actually drive

L0rdMike · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:01

Not much difference in the 0-60 times really, in gear acceleration was a lot different though.

Matt82 · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:01

http://www.dyno-plot.co.uk/dyno/power-and-torque.htm

this hopefully will make things easier to understand for some people

L0rdMike · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:02

Matt82 said:
its not at all, do you actually drive? seriously, try and get a petrol into 1st at 15-20mph+, you need a fairly large H&T style blip to get it in there because of the synchro

i swear half the people here dont actually drive

I can get the S2000 into 1st at that speed no problem.

Dup · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:37

Could do it in my EP3 too.

Begbie · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:46

Matt82 said:
so you cant get your head round one petrol and one diesel car exitting a tight roundabout, both in second, both drivers putting their foot down and the diesel pulling away?

clarkson was right when he said people with no knowledge or understanding or cars shouldnt be allowed to use them

Woow big fella.

You never mentioned anything about both cars being in 2nd! All I am mentioning is yes, diesels in the same gears at the same speeds will most likely leave a lot of petrols for dust. But an advantage to petrol cars is they 9/10 have higher revs allowing you to use your gearbox better.

Now settle down.

Demon · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:56

MrLOL said:
this is the conclusion i've come to

I'll admit, prior to this i was under the impression that adding torque would actually make the car faster rather than change its delivery.

Adding mid-range torque doesn't decrease 0-60 times since you are never in the midrange when going through the gears, although to be honest if you are still redlining it in each gear for your timed runs, you aren't getting the most out of the remap..

It's only going to be accelerate much quicker in-gear around 3.5-4.5K RPM, so unless you are in a fixed gear that's in that range when doing 50-70, it' isn't going to be electrifyingly different either..

I had my Zafira remapped by approx +50BHp / +120Nm of torque, and switchable by the sports button, which was a godsend, because switching to/from the high power map really made a noticeable difference, especially in the midrange..

alastair · 28 Oct 2009 at 13:57

I have an ep3 also; and must admit the lack of torque can be a pain (lazy driving not in the correct gear); a higher torqued engine would help. BUT, when you do drive it correctly its a lot of fun.

Performance, accelleration, or whatever you want to call it, is defined by gearing more than anything else. I enjoy driving, and personally dont like the power delivery of deisels (non-linear). Friends have 330d/530d and they are very fast 0-60+; but on a trackday it shows up the limitations of 3.5 - 4k rev's.

I also find a fuel card removes any other argument in favour of diesels; despite +25k/year.

Fr0dders · 28 Oct 2009 at 14:01

Neither the current or last Zafira has an ECU that can hold 2 maps.

Same with the vectra and astra. The sport button is "tweaked" to restrict the throttle, effectively pegging back the max attainable throttle off sport mode to say 60 % or so, effectively making it feel faster with sport on.

Tuners pulled the wool over everybodys eyes with that one

speak to a proper tuner like courtenay sport for more info if you want to know more.

NickXX · 28 Oct 2009 at 14:02

[TW]Fox;15191957 said:
When overtaking on a normal road where more time overtaking = more time exposed to danger? Hell yes, maximum performance is hugely important but in this sort of scenario you simply select a lower gear and then complete the maneouver even quicker than you would have done in the diesel.

Surely this was all dragged out before?

The sweet spot for overtaking on an NSL road is say, 40-70+mph. The x30d will happily cover this range in 3rd gear and go on to around 80+ if you really needed it to. The x30i will require a gear change in between. Surely the diesel is the more capable vehicle at this task.