Islamaphobia Legislation (UK)

Soldato
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Kind of sounds like you're religiously discriminating at best and racist at worst.

I've said nothing racist. Indeed, being able to separate race and culture (which some "anti-racists" seem incapable of doing) is the exact opposite of that. Unless you can find an example of my actually being racist (you wont), you owe me an apology. Nor does being opposed to a religion necessarily mean discriminating against its adherents. I have had Muslim friends and colleagues I got on fine with and who were good people. I can still consider the religion itself harmful. Or any religion.

Tories in shock motivation to play to their base by creating the outrage for their base to froth over.

What part of "All Party" was overly-complex for you? Scottish Conservative Party has already formally adopted this. And shouldn't people be outraged about laws forbidding criticism of a religion? Rhetorical question - the answer is yes.

Is this any different to laws and protections for Jewish/Israel people?

No - it's the exact same problem. UK courts have previously used the IHRA definition of anti-semitism and in the USA courts were explicitly instructed to use that definition. A definition that states criticism of Israel and / or it's foreign policy, is racism. That's another thing I've spoken against. It is logically false that criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic. I've even been called antisemitic one time for arguing that Jewish people aren't any different genetically from Western Europeans. Race is mostly nonsense, doubly-so when you interpret it as culture.

Religion is a lifestyle choice, and as such is open to criticism and a free topic to be discussed.
People are free to comment on how i live my life, i am free to do the same.

As it should be.

What's wrong with discriminating if it's done on a rational basis? the problem with this law is its ultimately going to penalise all attempts at rational debate as the crime of irrational hate.

What's wrong with it is that you pose the question in such a way that it negates itself for practical purposes. With such a large and diverse group as "muslims", it's almost useless to use it as a tool for disrciminating in any area other than is directly impacted by beliefs. I'd certainly never use it as a basis for employing someone or not, whether I think someone is a good person or not, and so on. You can only supported use it for things directly tied to the belief system. The issue with this legislation isn't about actual discrimination per se. That's a bad thing. It's that it declares something to be discrimination that isn't. And it equates race and culture, which is a lie. And it does it as a political power move.
 
Soldato
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I have never heard an explanation given as to why so called 'islamophobia' is racism that would not also implicitly make opposition to and/or criticism of a wide range of other beliefs systems racism aswell (including non religious and quasi religious ones).

Islam, even amongst other religions, is somewhat usual in that it has an explicitly political aspect to it (very different from say the Christian example of render unto Caesar that which is Caesars and God that which is his) .

The move to curtail criticism of Islam is therefore a particularly insidious attempt at censorship and should be resisted firmly.
 
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Soldato
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Be very careful when discussing this topic and seeing Muslims as Muslims. There like in many religions are a wide variety of views within them and go from extreme views to those who are Muslim by birth but do little if anything to practice the religion. In the same way as many in the UK Jewish community criticise the actions of the state of Israel the same is true for UK Muslims for those in other countries.

I recognise this. And I hope you'll find that personally at least, I *am* very careful in discussing the topic. Specifically you'll find my criticism levelled at Islam, not Muslims en masse.


If you look at the Irish troubles catholic’s and Protestants often lived in segregated communities which had great hostility to each other but now due to great sacrifice and hard work a generation has grown up on both sides of the border without this and benefited greatly. Just be careful to judge the actions and not condemn a whole community in the UK wholesale for the actions of others, this breeds intolerance, racism and makes the 3,000,000+ Muslims in the UK face the same unwarranted prejudice the Jewish and other communities currently do.

Which brings us to the subject of integration. I had friends growing up who were entirely Western in their attitudes, but their parents (typically Pakistani background) were strict and punished them for "talking with boys" or forced them to wear hijab. If this definition is adopted then whilst I'm unlikely to be punished for criticising such things in casual conversation (though it's possible if someone takes offence or it was at work), it has the chilling effect of anyone in the public eye doing so facing a very real risk of it.
 
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So now we make a phobia a criminal offence?

A phobia is an overwhelming and debilitating fear of an object, place, situation, feeling or animal. Phobias are more pronounced than fears. They develop when a person has an exaggerated or unrealistic sense of danger about a situation or object.
From the NHS website.

What would be the penalty? You are hereby sentenced to a course of medical treatment until you are proven to be cured?

It seems like the aversion therapy at the end of 'A Clockwork Orange'. Dystopia come true.
 
Soldato
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Religion is a lifestyle choice, e.

Not sure that's totally fair to say that, religion forced on kids, kids start off pretty dumb if people keep telling then a book made up a few 1000 year ago is true many will believe it... Should be banned until 18 then let them decide which sky daddy is real (if any).. Anything forced on little kids is just indoctrination..
 
Soldato
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People should remember that the UK has already had an explicitly Islamic political party (if not one that had an electoral success) and its founding leader is a white male born in Sheffield (and a former Roman Catholic) which should give the 'islamophobia is racism' crowd some pause for thought as they try and reconcile that in.

What would the effect then be of a proposed adoption of a defintion:

Racism = islamophobia = Criticism of 'muslimness'

To carrying out political discourse if any future Islamic party starts to gain poltical traction due to the currently rapidly expanding Muslim population of the UK?

Bearing in mind that the Islamic party of Britain had policies and positions such as wanting the UK finance system to be Sharia compliant, that homosexuality would require treatment an that any homosexuals deemed to be acting 'lewdly' in public could be put to death?
 
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Soldato
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I do not understand why people on the left do not value freedom of speech, they're more concerned with feelings being hurt than liberty. I'll be seeking political asylum at this rate.
 
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If anyone is interested, here are the parliamentary members of the group responsible:
https://appgbritishmuslims.org/members

A couple of leading Conservatives in there which will no doubt astonish StriderX and provoke further use of the word "frothing".

Means nothing, if May puts it forward (I assume she needs to do it) and it passes the vote with her whip, that’s tacit approval.

Just going to have to wait to be proven right is all. I’m patient.
 
Soldato
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I do not understand why people on the left do not value freedom of speech, they're more concerned with feelings being hurt than liberty. I'll be seeking political asylum at this rate.

Since when is Theresa May on the left? And from which country would you seek asylum?
 
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Is this any different to laws and protections for Jewish/Israel people?

Would make sense for Christians to be offered the same protection now and possibly through introduction of this legislation it automatically platforms this.

Only Jews and Muslims are allowed immunity from criticism.

The country will burn to the ground before Christians are ever given the same treatment.
 
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Only Jews and Muslims are allowed immunity from criticism.

The country will burn to the ground before Christians are ever given the same treatment.

It’s literally the state religion and we have bishops in the lords, how much more prevalence do you need?

No religion is the majority in this country thankfully.
 
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I've said nothing racist. Indeed, being able to separate race and culture (which some "anti-racists" seem incapable of doing) is the exact opposite of that. Unless you can find an example of my actually being racist (you wont), you owe me an apology. Nor does being opposed to a religion necessarily mean discriminating against its adherents. I have had Muslim friends and colleagues I got on fine with and who were good people. I can still consider the religion itself harmful. Or any religion.

I really don't think I do.....
I have a deep distrust of Islam and major issues with the religion. It's little to do with race.

Edit

My god I swear I'm becoming dyslexic, honestly thought that said "it's a little to do race" (twice).

Yes, sorry obviously saying that doesn't make you racist.

The thing is, how far and wide does your distrust go? I understand people having issues with religion (I do myself or at least how some have twisted to their own end)? Are you prejudging people on their religion? What makes one Muslim untrustworthy compared to the next? You say skin colour has nothing to do with it yet but reference it.

Or is it simply down to when someone 'discovers' their religion?
 
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Soldato
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My god I swear I'm becoming dyslexic, honestly thought that said "it's a little to do race" (twice).

Yes, sorry obviously saying that doesn't make you racist.

The thing is, how far and wide does your distrust go? I understand people having issues with religion (I do myself or at least how some have twisted to their own end)? Are you prejudging people on their religion? What makes one Muslim untrustworthy compared to the next? You say skin colour has nothing to do with it yet but reference it.

Or is it simply down to when someone 'discovers' their religion?

You're equating his distrust of Islam the ideology with distrust of individual Muslims. They aren't the same thing.
 
Soldato
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Since when is Theresa May on the left? And from which country would you seek asylum?

I think the legislation is probably in response to the accusations from the left that the conservative party are Islamophobic. I'd seek asylum in the US, they seem to actually care about individual freedoms more so than any other country
 
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