James Cameron's 'Avatar' - The next gen of cinema

[sunama]

Evangelion, can you give me an idea of the sort of films you do like? Your top 3 films that you have enjoyed recently?

I'm not having a go or anything, its just that I think our tastes may be similar (ie. not impressed by CGI or fancy graphics). In saying that, I do tend to enjoy CGI heavy films when the CGI is done well and the story is strong. Terminator2 remains one of my all time favourite films. And I loved the Spiderman films. Conversely, I felt Transformers2 was one of the worst films I have sat through, from start to finish, during the last 5 years or so.

 

[Gustov]

That's the problem though, I see the 5/10 'score' as bang-on average which the film probably is if you're not interested in the visual side of it.

I wish people wouldn't rate films out of ten or whatever though but if they write enough of a description of their thoughts then its that's okay. Critics should ditch the 5 stars system too.

Buy sight and sound

 

[Strife212]

(Avatar is replete with heavy overtones of cultural imperialism and white supremacy).

I was ok until this part. What?

It's a blatant attack on those if anything.

 

[ShakenNstirred]

avatars just won 2 golden globes
best director and best film

 

[Sankari]

All score ratings are stupid anyway.

How are you supposed to tell what's better out of a 3 out of 5 stars comedy film and a 4 out of 5 stars action movie?

Its too vague and too generalised. I like reading reviews and listening to Kermode's verbal review of Avatar was interesting but as far as I know, he didn't slap some pointless 'rating' at the end of it because it means nothing.

Although, as Evangelion's done, there is nothing wrong with giving Avatar a 5/10 irregardless of what other movies recieved 'similar' ratings from completely different people on some wholly unrelated website.

Good point. A rating is only meaningful when compared to the rating of other movies in the same genre. That's why I dismissed the comparison to The Lost Boys as completely irrelevant. Compare apples with apples or don't compare anything at all. A rating is only as useful as its context.

I wouldn't even have bothered to give Avatar a rating, had I not spent the past (x) number of pages being badgered for a review by people who've raved about it. But having decided to do so, I thought it best to explain my rationale.

 

[Sankari]

They were just 2 examples of horrendous films that scored roughly 5/10. The point simply being Avatar was significantly better than these.

I'd say the real point - which you seem to be missing - is that neither of those movies is remotely comparable with Avatar at all. Their respective scores are totally irrelevant. They mean nothing in the context of this discussion.

Avatar should be judged against other movies of the same era and genre, not against random nonsense dredged up from years ago.

 

[Sankari]

I'm not aware of anyone denying this. The point that some of us struggling to make some of you understand is that whether the CGI is good or not has no bearing on whether the film is good. It's quite possible to make a brilliant film with no CGI, a good film with bad CGI (although it grates when it happens) and a bad film with good CGI (all the Star wars films for instance). In this case we had great CGI coupled with a trite plot, poor acting and fairly good (if lazy) direction.

[lots of other excellent points]

M

+1

That's a big 10-4 from me, good buddy.

 

[Sankari]

Fair enough, but you're therefore suggesting if you'd read/heard less hype, you would have scored/thought more of it? Doesn't seem a very reasoned approach

No, I wouldn't. I have been impressed by massively hyped movies before. For example, I thought the first Harry Potter movie was great fun, despite its deviations from the book. And having heard all the hype about The Abyss, I finally watched it and decided that, if anything, it needed to be hyped even more!

Again, I absolutely agree with many/most of your thoughts, and I also felt let down somewhat by these aspects, but just as Mark Kermode has suggested, for some reason these pitfalls don't ruin the experience. And at the end of the day that's what Avatar (& any film really) is, an experience...

Yes, it has flaws, but for me - for some reason - it still was damn entertaining and enjoyable... Which at the end of the day is my main criteria.

Fair play. They didn't ruin the experience for me, but they did detract from it a great deal IMHO.

 

[Sankari]

No he isnt, he is playing games.

Or to put it in forum terms, "baiting".

Its got to the point with him where he doesnt really have anything fresh to say, and is just trying to wind people up, he thinks he is using a sophisticated sense of humour by by bringing things like "muslim subtext" and "gay and lesbian characters" up as a way of highlighting the fact that Avatar has a simple story.

Well spotted, Grasshopper! In time, these perceptions will become instinctive.

Or perhaps you just read post #1136, where I openly stated:

The plot was so thin, I had to add a few bits to make it interesting.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Which should have been clear enough for anyone.

I'd ignore his counter arguments to the case, they will be nonsense as well.

Don't be ridiculous; of course I wont' be posting any counter-arguments to the case. Please read post #1136 and stop taking life so seriously.

 

[Sankari]

Evangelion, can you give me an idea of the sort of films you do like? Your top 3 films that you have enjoyed recently?

I'm not having a go or anything, its just that I think our tastes may be similar (ie. not impressed by CGI or fancy graphics). In saying that, I do tend to enjoy CGI heavy films when the CGI is done well and the story is strong. Terminator2 remains one of my all time favourite films. And I loved the Spiderman films. Conversely, I felt Transformers2 was one of the worst films I have sat through, from start to finish, during the last 5 years or so.

Sure, no problem.

I love plot-driven movies; dialogue-driven movies; character-driven movies. Movies that surprise me; movies with realistic, intelligently constructed plots and themes. I also like fun movies; movies that just make you go "Wow!" with excitement, or laugh out loud. But above all, I like movies which remain true to their genre.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not one of those people who only appreciates "deep" movies. I'm happy with silly supernatural romps like Hellboy, Sleepy Hollow and Van Helsing because they come straight up to you and say "Hi, I'm a silly supernatural romp! Let's have some fun!" They're off the wall, but they're also well presented by strong actors with an excellent supporting cast and you know what you're getting when you read the label on the tin.

Here's a bunch of films I've enjoyed over the past year or so, in no particular order:

• Casshern
  This movie is great because it never pretends to be anything that it's not. Characterisation is not particularly deep, but only because it doesn't have to be. Everything makes sense within the context of the genre and the world in which the plot occurs. A classic Japanese action sci-fi for which I had no trouble suspending my disbelief.
  
  
• Fifty Dead Men Walking
  Historically accurate (for the most part) and absolutely gripping from start to finish. Raw, gutsy performances. No nonsense; no glamour. Just good old fashioned pain and grit.
  
  
• Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels
  A murderous romp that's quite happy being nothing more than a murderous romp. Great actors putting in great performances with plot twists ahoy!
  
  
• Snatch
  As above.
  
  
• Arlington Road
  Not an amazing movie, but nevertheless a good, understated, slow-boiling thriller.
  
  
• Pan's Labyrinth
  One of the best child performances I have ever seen. This one brought tears to my eyes. Anyone who's seen it will know why.
  
  
• Cidade de Deus
  Horribly realistic. Uncompromisingly violent. Gloriously nihilistic.
  
  
• Le Pacte des Loups
  Spectacular cinematography and breathtaking performances despite blatant historical inaccuracies which are easily forgiven because it's not pretending to be a historical drama anyway. Zut alors!
  
  
• Memento
  An original movie! Quick, somebody stuff the director and mount him in a glass box for posterity! Slow-moving yet deeply disturbing, with an unstoppable anti-hero and a diabolical twist.
  
  
• Ne Le Dis A Personne
  Gripping French thriller which keeps you guessing until the penultimate scene. Strong, believable performances throughout.
  
  
• Hot Fuzz
  Outlandish nonsense. Slapstick stupidity with a bucket of black humour. It's fun because it knows it's a silly movie and couldn't give a damn.
  
  
• District 9
  Intelligent sci-fi with fierce action, biting social comment and an anti-hero that you end up supporting despite yourself. Superb special effects bring the CGI characters to life in a way that I have rarely seen. Masterful!

You can also throw in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, Hero, House of Flying Daggers, Mongol and Apocalypse Now, Redux for good measure.

Not all of these movies are great movies. Some of them are outstanding; othere are just very good. But they all have one thing in common: they are true to themselves and they are true to their genre. The ones which require deep characterisation, have deep characterisation. The ones that require self-referential humour, have self-referential humour. The ones which draw upon historical events, do so legitimately and intelligently.

Avatar annoyed me because it was a low-brow movie trying to be high-brow. It was pretentious and if there's one thing I hate, it's pretension.

 

[Sankari]

I was ok until this part. What?

It's a blatant attack on those if anything.

Yes, it is a blatant attack on both of those concepts. But unfortunately the movie subverts itself by embracing those very elements for the sake of its increasingly ridiculous plot. There is nothing egalitarian or even Na'vi-esque about Jake's rise to power amongst the Na'vi. He's just the biggest kid on the block with the biggest weapon and the smartest mouth.

And, crucially, he is not a Na'vi. He's the Great White Chief from the Skies who has to lead the noble savages to glory because they're not smart enough to do it by themselves. So after all this "nasty humans hurting lovely natives" business, the Na'vi ultimately find salvation in the very race which attacks them. Jake civilises the Na'vi by introducing human constructs to their society and empowers them by providing human technology. He is a Lawrence of Arabia for blue space monkeys. Subtext: white men rule, OK?

 

[Cosimo]

Avatar wins 2 Golden Globe awards, Best Motion Picture and Best Director. Will it do the same in the Academy Awards?

 

[NeilF]

That's the problem though, I see the 5/10 'score' as bang-on average which the film probably is if you're not interested in the visual side of it.

I wish people wouldn't rate films out of ten or whatever though but if they write enough of a description of their thoughts then its that's okay. Critics should ditch the 5 stars system too.

I don't have a problem with X/10 scores. Yes it's no science, but it is at least a rough indication of someone's overall thoughts.

My initial comments on Avatar may have seemed a little negative, but I would hope my rating of 8/10 would give people a better indication of my overall thoughts/feelings...

 

[NeilF]

Golden Globes - Avatar gets best picture (drama) and best director?

Hmmm... Let the battle begin.

I'm on the fence myself... I suppose it was an incredible technical feat, moving the cinematic experience forward a nice step, so yes, I can understand it. But then the story and some of the performances were somewhat limp?

Being almost 100% CGI it's almost like comparing apples and oranges ...

 

[Tummy]

I think it was a good film, but wasn't the best film this year.

I don't think it deserved best direction either.

It certainly looks very good though

 

[Sankari]

Avatar wins 2 Golden Globe awards, Best Motion Picture and Best Director. Will it do the same in the Academy Awards?

Well, Titanic was gob-smackingly awful and it still cleaned up at the Academy Awards. So anything's possible.

These days, if a director wants an award-winning hit all he needs to do is press the "overhype" button and let his publicists take care of the rest.

 

[NeilF]

Well, Titanic was gob-smackingly awful and it still cleaned up at the Academy Awards. So anything's possible.

Sorry, but I really enjoy/like it

 

[Tummy]

Sorry, but I really enjoy/like it

I like Free Willy, but I don't think it's a great film You can enjoy / like things and that thing still not be very good.

 

[Sankari]

Sorry, but I really enjoy/like it

At least you're sorry.

 

[NeilF]

At least you're sorry.

Easy tiger...

You've already shown - in your own words - you came down harder on Avatar because it was hyped/successful. So not suprising you'd come down like an anvil on a film you didn't enjoy if it was the most successful film of all time.

Is it "gob-smackingly awful?" Of course not, but you feel the need to try and counter its success with this sort of irrational condemnation. If you don't enjoy it, fine. If you think it has faults (which of course it does), fine. Not your sort of flick, fine. But at least be rational/fair else discussion is a waste of time...