Japanese Grand Prix 2014, Suzuka - Race 15/19

Again I really wouldn't focus too much on the safety car, they could have not deployed a safety car AND not put a tractor out there. F1 cars hit F1 cars all the time, it's not as safe as hitting a barrier but its a ridiculous amount safer than hitting a ******* tractor or the counter weight on a tractor. Ultimately if the tractor wasn't there, Bianchi could have gone off and another 4 cars and no one might have been injured. Again someone showed a video early in this thread of a similar situation, terrible conditions, aquaplaning and a moronic decision to send a tractor out as cars were still flying off on that corner, a car HIT the damn tractor, but at low speed, side on and hit the tires, that could have been worse.

In dry conditions where it would take a significant driver error to go off on certain corners, then removing cars without a safety car is somewhat necessary but obviously depending on the position of the car we get safety cars pretty often anyway. But in the rain, every track should have a list of high danger corners that under rain and under aquaplaning danger tractors should never be allowed on the track without a safety car. That doesn't automatically mean a safety car, sometimes just leaving the car where it is would be fine. Sutil's car would have been far far less dangerous to hit for Bianchi than the freaking tractor/counter weight.


AS I've hinted at though, speed limits have to be implemented in some situations. With no actual speed drop requirement with a yellow flag, drivers can't risk slowing down much. Because one guy could drop 30kph, a guy behind him might only drop 25kph and he'll gain an advantage. This pushes all the drivers to drop speed as little as possible.
Remove the option, put an actual speed they have to stick to and they'll stick to it, does anyone speed in the pitlane(intentionally) no, drivers stick to rules and push the limits on every rule. Make the rule safe so even if they push the limit it's still safe. "slow a bit please" means they are pushing top speed, "slow to 125kph max" is a limit they wouldn't break if told not to.
 
It stands to reason, otherwise there wouldn't have been an accident.

Anything said today is just well reasoned speculation at best. Time to wait on the FIA and organisers.

I'm off to make some lunch, I'm done with this thread for today.

Maria de villota, in an unfortunate coincidence also in a marussia, had a similar accident during a test at low speed in duxford. So saying there wouldn't have been an accident isn't really true.
 
Perversely I'd at least class that as some positive news, was half expecting the next update to be a grave one.

Clearly he's in a very bad way but at least he's alive and there is hope.
 
Indeed. Hamilton even said that when he won in Silverstone 2008 the conditions were far worse and everyone was spinning off the track. I see there being no difference between that and here too, in fact Silverstone 2003 and even Interlagos in 1993 were worse, not to mention DC's grid pile up at Spa in 1998.

There have been far far worse and more dangerous situations where things have been fine but as the cars are much easier to drive nowadays, they seem to be a lot more carefree and tend to drive much faster through yellow flags than what they used to do.

In worse conditions cars are often going more slowly the whole time. That is the thing, it's changing conditions where the danger comes in and spinning off wasn't the danger, it was spinning off and hitting a god damned counter weight on a tractor that has hurt him. Remove the tractor and safety increases dramatically.

The conditions weren't unsafe, Sutil's car being there wasn't particularly unsafe, the tractor being there was disgracefully unsafe.

It's NOT about the requirement of the safety car or not or a safety car always being used, it's about the safety of putting a freaking road block infront of the path of a race car... it should not happen when the chance of going off is heavily increase as it was in that situation.
 
The JCB was not a road block, it was right alongside the barriers.
Show me footage of a tractor being trackside on one of the most dangerous corners of the track, under double-yellow's, in heavy rain, at Silverstone03 or Spa98 and we can talk.

I meant Silverstone 2008, typo, but still there have been many many times where there has been recovery vehicles on track in wet races in far worse conditions than today. Basically what I'm trying to say is it is no one's fault for what happened. Charlie clearly wanted to wait to see if the car could be moved quickly so that the race could resume, if yes then that would be fine. It was a very unfortunate and coincidental mishap that Bianchi just happened to aquaplane off track right behind the JCB as it was moving Sutil's car off the track. Given about 20 more seconds that area would have been fully cleared.

While I immediately though "SC!", sometimes you need to just sit back and think it through logically. This is why we are not the Race Director and Charlie Whiting is. This situation has been no different than the past and it's just unfortunate circumstances that has made this happen.
 
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https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news...going-surgery-suzuka-crash-105432884--f1.html
 
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In worse conditions cars are often going more slowly the whole time. That is the thing, it's changing conditions where the danger comes in and spinning off wasn't the danger, it was spinning off and hitting a god damned counter weight on a tractor that has hurt him. Remove the tractor and safety increases dramatically.

The conditions weren't unsafe, Sutil's car being there wasn't particularly unsafe, the tractor being there was disgracefully unsafe.

It's NOT about the requirement of the safety car or not or a safety car always being used, it's about the safety of putting a freaking road block infront of the path of a race car... it should not happen when the chance of going off is heavily increase as it was in that situation.

A safety car would have completely avoided the incident so I think it is about the safety car.

Although as you say nothing happening would have been better then moving a tractor on the track in those conditions and not bringing out the SC.
 
Why did the race start with no helicopter? Didn't they delay the start of (I think the Turkish gp?) a few years ago because the medical helicopter wasn't there.

As Ted reported yesterday they can decide to start the race without the use of the medical helicopter if the roads to a sufficiently equipped hospital are good enough.

I read somewhere earlier that if such a hospital is within 20 minutes they can opt for that.
 
Weather too bad to fly I think they mentioned at one stage?

Yeah but if they delayed the start of a race years ago in nice weather without a helicopter, why run the race in bad weather without one?

Not that a helicopter would have prevented the accident, I just find it odd.
 
As Ted reported yesterday they can decide to start the race without the use of the medical helicopter if the roads to a sufficiently equipped hospital are good enough.

I read somewhere earlier that if such a hospital is within 20 minutes they can opt for that.

Ah ok I missed that about the roads.
 
A safety car would have completely avoided the incident so I think it is about the safety car.

Although as you say nothing happening would have been better then moving a tractor on the track in those conditions and not bringing out the SC.

Rubbish. Ericsson span out on the first lap behind the safety car...
 
While I immediately though "SC!", sometimes you need to just sit back and think it through logically. This is why we are not the Race Director and Charlie Whiting is. This situation has been no different than the past and it's just unfortunate circumstances that has made this happen.
They were just lucky in the past, not unfortunate this time.
 
A safety car would have completely avoided the incident so I think it is about the safety car.

Although as you say nothing happening would have been better then moving a tractor on the track in those conditions and not bringing out the SC.

The only think that would have avoided the accident is cars not moving.

Ericsson went off the track in the first lap behind the safety car. There have been plenty of races of cars going straight on behind a safety car
 
Really double waved yellows in any part of the track should put the whole track on lockdown to a set speed limit so nobody can gain any time

Let's face it yellows and double waved yellows all the drivers generally do is lift of as a gesture to show they lifted. This arises from one driver perhaps going a but faster than the other through the yellows and a potential to make up time as the other driver was slower through the area.

It is not a good situation
 
The JCB was not a road block, it was right alongside the barriers.

location isn't why I called it a roadblock, what it's made of is what I was getting at. barriers have give, even if he hit Sutil's car, it's MUCH less strong and would have moved absorbing a lot of energy of the impact and it would have pushed it into the barriers. In hitting what will be a massive huge concrete filled counter weight he has hit a massive immovable object with no give, no padding, no energy dissipation at all.

In that sense the tractor is effectively a road block, it has no business being anywhere you could consider a high risk.... in the direct path of a car that has just aquaplanned off is an incredibly high risk place to put an immovable object.
 
Great racing despite the crash. Vettel did some awesome overtakes as did ricciardo. Severe head injury for bianchi. Hopefully be ok though.
 
Charlie clearly wanted to wait to see if the car could be moved quickly so that the race could resume, if yes then that would be fine. It was a very unfortunate and coincidental mishap that Bianchi just happened to aquaplane off track right behind the JCB as it was moving Sutil's car off the track. Given about 20 more seconds that area would have been fully cleared.

It was not a coincidence that Bianchi went off at the same place. Both cars aquaplaned on the inters at exactly the same point of the corner. That is not a coincidence.


Ah ok I missed that about the roads.
I don't think it's in the regulations (I couldn't see it earlier anyway) so if it's true it's probably done on a circuit-by-circuit basis.

As was reported later the medical helicopter could fly, but they chose to use the road method.
 
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I think they need to stop having recovery vehicles on the run off area of a live race track. either speed limit the cars or issue a safety car. It puts the safety of the marshals and drivers at risk.

It was not a coincidence that Bianchi went off at the same place. Both cars aquaplaned on the inters at exactly the same point of the corner. That is not a coincidence.

Exactly, same thing as two drivers hitting the same bit of debris and having a puncture, it's not a coincidence.

I hope Bianchi pulls through, not really fussed if he steps in a race car again but if he survives this with no life affecting consequences I would be happy.
 
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Rubbish. Ericsson span out on the first lap behind the safety car...

Yes but even if he spins off, under the safety car he is going significantly slower and likely stuck in traffic following the safe line the other cars are taking...

You can't just say "I have seen a car spin off under SC before so that is rubbish" as an argument because the fact is that under a safety car there would be significantly less chance of him going off.
 
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