Jermey Clarkson - The Good The Bad and the Ugly

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Saw this not long ago, basically about European Cars Vs US Cars. It is all very amusing and good to watch, but was he fair in his use of cars in the comparisons ? I am sure there are some truth in it, but did he picked the right cars for the head to head test?
 
I feel that there were times the tests were fair, times the tests were biased towards the EU car, and times where the tests were biased towards the US car. Not that it helped the US whichever way around it was, the EU cars were still better ;)

Entertaining though, especially the 4x4 hillclimb thingy.
 
Raymond Lin said:
Saw this not long ago, basically about European Cars Vs US Cars. It is all very amusing and good to watch, but was he fair in his use of cars in the comparisons ? I am sure there are some truth in it, but did he picked the right cars for the head to head test?

Hi there

Its a good watch and a good laugh but I would not take any of it seriously.

Some points:-

He pitches a Mustang against a horse. He says this is a Mustang GT V8, wheras it is in fact the V6 Mustang and a soft top at that. I don't know how he can get away with that? In real life I would still expect even the V6 to be quicker than he lead everyone to believe from his test method.

Then he looks at the Shelby GT500, he says it uses the same 4.6l engine as the Mustang GT with a supercharger bolted on and makes 475BHP. He also says they did not change the suspension or brakes. Well the car actually has a supercharged 5.4l cast iron engine producing 500BHP. Ford did upgrade the brakes and suspension but did not do a great job and the fact the car weighs 250kg more than a Mustang GT is why its handling is poor, too much weight on the front end.

He then compares a Roush again an Lotus Exige S. The Roush is a GT car designed for fast street driving and long journeys. The Lotus Exige S is a true track weapon. The race appears to be very close but would it not have been far fairer to compare two similar cars. Like say maybe have put the Roush up against an M3, M5 or an Audi RS4? From the video the Exige only just wins and I'd assume the Exige is a much quicker track car than an M3 or M5, yet alone an RS4 on a track that looked as twisty as that one.

The only test I truly believe is the 4x4 one, as the Americans efforts in 4x4 seem to be just about Bling Bling as seen from the video they either break, fall to bits or get stuck. Range Rovers and Land Rovers really are the best off road vehicles and thats something the Americans cannot really compete with us Brits on. :)

Great American cars are the Mustang, Corvette, Ford GT, Saleens, Roush but pretty much all the other stuff is crap when it comes to handling and performance. Though further new cars from Dodge and Chevrolet may change that though with the new Challenger and Camaro.
 
Gibbo said:
Hi there

Its a good watch and a good laugh but I would not take any of it seriously.

Some points:-

He pitches a Mustang against a horse. He says this is a Mustang GT V8, wheras it is in fact the V6 Mustang and a soft top at that. I don't know how he can get away with that? In real life I would still expect even the V6 to be quicker than he lead everyone to believe.

Then he looks at the Shelby GT500, he says it uses the same 4.6l engine with a supercharger and makes 475BHP. He also says they did not change the suspension or brakes. Well the car actually has a supercharged 5.4l cast iron engine producing 500BHP. Ford did upgrade the brakes and suspension but did not do a great job and the fact the car weighs 250kg more than a Mustang GT is why its handling is poor.

He then compares a Roush again an Exige S. The Roush is a GT car designed for fast street driving and long journeys. The Exige S is a true track weapon. The race appears to be very close but would it not have been far fairer to compare two similar cars. Like say maybe have put the Roush up against an M3, M5 or an Audi RS4? From the video the Exige only just wins and I'd assume the Exige is a much quicker track car than an M3 or M5, yet alone an RS4.

The only test I truly believe is the 4x4 one, as the Americans efforts in 4x4 seem to be just about Bling Bling as seen from the video they either break, fall to bits or get stuck. Range Rovers and Land Rovers really off the best off road vehicles and thats something the Americans cannot really compete with us Brits on. :)

Great American cars are the Mustang, Corvette, Ford GT, Saleens, Roush but pretty much all the other stuff is crap when it comes to handling and performance. Though further new cars from Dodge and Chevrolet may change that though with the Challenger and Camaro.

LOL

I think a V6 mustang losing to a horse is just as bad.. and the V6 is still 210hp vs 1hp ;)

The Shelby is 5.4l but is 475bhp not 500, http://www.stangnet.com/2005-Mustang/2007-shelby-gt500-182006.html

Its all very well saying because its 250kg heavier thats why the handling is poor, but the fact is, the handling is poor.. and not being able to correct this as its due to weight is not something in its favour...

Yes the roush is better on long straight roads compared to an Exige S, but the price tags are similar, and would be bought by similar people in their respective countries... M3, M5 etc etc I think would still be pretty good compared to the Mustang.. but who knows...

The main point really is that Americans build cars for a different purpose to us europeans as they have different roads. I have a feeling if a european car manufacturer was to build a car/engine combo of 5.4l, supercharged, it would be faster and better handling, probably more fuel efficient and lighter too, however, on a journey from san francisco to los angeles, it would make you deaf, unable to walk, and in such a state, you would sell it in LA and buy a Mustang for the drive back..

Horses for courses and all that

:cool:
 
Gibbo said:
He then compares a Roush again an Lotus Exige S. The Roush is a GT car designed for fast street driving and long journeys. The Lotus Exige S is a true track weapon. The race appears to be very close but would it not have been far fairer to compare two similar cars. Like say maybe have put the Roush up against an M3, M5 or an Audi RS4? From the video the Exige only just wins and I'd assume the Exige is a much quicker track car than an M3 or M5, yet alone an RS4 on a track that looked as twisty as that one.

Nah, that track was long, sweeping, and not tight/technical at all. An M3 would have beaten the exige due to the top-end advantage, which the roush would have managed had it actually been able to go around the bends rather than dramatically understeer like they forgot to fit a steering rack.
 
paradigm said:
Nah, that track was long, sweeping, and not tight/technical at all. An M3 would have beaten the exige due to the top-end advantage, which the roush would have managed had it actually been able to go around the bends rather than dramatically understeer like they forgot to fit a steering rack.

I suspect that as well...

:cool:
 
Dr Who said:
LOL

I think a V6 mustang losing to a horse is just as bad.. and the V6 is still 210hp vs 1hp ;)

The Shelby is 5.4l but is 475bhp not 500, http://www.stangnet.com/2005-Mustang/2007-shelby-gt500-182006.html

Its all very well saying because its 250kg heavier thats why the handling is poor, but the fact is, the handling is poor.. and not being able to correct this as its due to weight is not something in its favour...

Yes the roush is better on long straight roads compared to an Exige S, but the price tags are similar, and would be bought by similar people in their respective countries... M3, M5 etc etc I think would still be pretty good compared to the Mustang.. but who knows...

The main point really is that Americans build cars for a different purpose to us europeans as they have different roads. I have a feeling if a european car manufacturer was to build a car/engine combo of 5.4l, supercharged, it would be faster and better handling, probably more fuel efficient and lighter too, however, on a journey from san francisco to los angeles, it would make you deaf, unable to walk, and in such a state, you would sell it in LA and buy a Mustang for the drive back..

Horses for courses and all that

:cool:

NO the Shelby GT500 is 500BHP, go to Fords website and this is clearly shown in their marketing. Clarkson got his facts very wrong it does not have a 4.6l engine and is not 475BHP.

The GT500 can handle nicely with proper suspension tuning, SVT Ford group just did a poor job. Stiffening up the rear makes the world of difference to the car but that still does not help the huge weight dis-advantage is now has due to Ford putting in an engine from a truck.

EVO magazine have had the Roush on their track along with the BMW's and it laps quicker than an M3 CS, so it can't corner that bad. As the Roush is 415BHP and an M3 is 344BHP I think, but am unsure if the CS model has more power?
EVO have even taken the standard Mustang GT on their track and it outperformed many other Euro/Jap cars including an EVO 260.

Also I do not think similar people would both buy either a Mustang or an Exige. They are completely different cars and they have nothing in common.

Also I'd say fuel consumption is pretty good, how many cars do you know off with over 500BHP that can return 25MPG on the motorway when cruising in top around 80-90mph? With about 14-16mpg around town and never using top gear, so they aint that bad. :)
 
paradigm said:
Nah, that track was long, sweeping, and not tight/technical at all. An M3 would have beaten the exige due to the top-end advantage, which the roush would have managed had it actually been able to go around the bends rather than dramatically understeer like they forgot to fit a steering rack.

An Exige S is a lot quicker than an M3. The Exige S managed 100mph in less than 10s wheras an M3 is more like 12s I believe, that is several car lengths. Maybe the M3 is quicker past 140mph but the Exige S is one quick car, it has plenty of power and weighs nothing.

Also if the Roush cannot corner how come it beats an M3 CS, M3 and M5 in EVO's test. I am sure EVO have no bias towards Americans cars and as such would have thought their testing was fair and accurate. :)
 
Gibbo said:
An Exige S is a lot quicker than an M3. The Exige S managed 100mph in less than 10s wheras an M3 is more like 12s I believe, that is several car lengths. Maybe the M3 is quicker past 140mph but the Exige S is one quick car, it has plenty of power and weighs nothing.

Also if the Roush cannot corner how come it beats an M3 CS, M3 and M5 in EVO's test. I am sure EVO have no bias towards Americans cars and as such would have thought their testing was fair and accurate. :)

Exige S 0-60 4.1 seconds

M3 E46 0-60 4.8 seconds

Exige S top speed 148mph

M3 top speed (delimited) 189mph or 155 on the limiter

CSL would be even faster, or lets be fair and compare like for like M3 V8... :p

If the stock M3 was geared for the same top speed as the Exige, that would also tell a different tale, there are too many variables involved... to just say one car is better than another.. I still think a good M3 would beat the mustang overall.. in build quality, reliability, comfort, performance, economy, and dare i say it, prestige...

Whilst I love the Roushe mustang, Its a fast cruiser, not a sports car.. same for the shelby, even a decent supra would kick its butt all over the place.. you cannot argue that Americans just cannot build a sports car like the europeans or japanese... despite a little bit of fanboi bias ;)
 
Great American cars? where? All I see is large engines in heavy cars. I went to the states last week and almost every other car was a bloody new style Mustang (or a Hummer), It's like a Brit version of a Mondeo!

Thing I also found funny was almost every single movie pretty always has the main character driving some classic American muscle car, you think it's something you'd see everyday. In 2 weeks I probably saw 2, infact I barely saw any car which looked over 5 years old, except maybe Hondas.

As for the OT, I've seen it. I'm no experts on specs and stuff but he sounded pretty fair, seemed to like quite a few of their cars.
 
Dr Who said:
M3 top speed (delimited) 189mph or 155 on the limiter

CSL would be even faster, or lets be fair and compare like for like M3 V8... :p
Not a cat in hells chance that an M3 would pull 189mph, and no CSL would go over 190mph in standard form. I know of plenty of derestricted cars that have tried, and some who have seen it on a speedo (I saw 170mph in mine once, and that was not de-restricted) but my M3 speedo was around 10mph fast, and most run out of puff at around 175-179mph real speed.
 
Dr Who said:
Exige S 0-60 4.1 seconds

M3 E46 0-60 4.8 seconds

Exige S top speed 148mph

M3 top speed (delimited) 189mph or 155 on the limiter

CSL would be even faster, or lets be fair and compare like for like M3 V8... :p

If the stock M3 was geared for the same top speed as the Exige, that would also tell a different tale, there are too many variables involved... to just say one car is better than another.. I still think a good M3 would beat the mustang overall.. in build quality, reliability, comfort, performance, economy, and dare i say it, prestige...

Whilst I love the Roushe mustang, Its a fast cruiser, not a sports car.. same for the shelby, even a decent supra would kick its butt all over the place.. you cannot argue that Americans just cannot build a sports car like the europeans or japanese... despite a little bit of fanboi bias ;)

Hi there

So top speed makes a car faster?

Sorry whats more important to me is the car that actually gets to 100mph quicker whether it be from a standstill or a rolling start. Both the Exige S and Roush Mustang put the M3 to shame here, even including CSL model. The V8 M3 aint out yet, but when it is I suspect it will be a monster of a car.
Now if your talking a CSL thats a different kettle of fish that car is awsome on the track and it would definetely beat an Exige S and a Roush Mustang. However a CSL is not cheap, they are very expensive.

Gearing of cars is done to best compliment their engines. You can't just gear an M3 the same as an Elise as the end result would no doubt be too much wheelspin. Thats why Mustangs come with very long gearing or else the torque would just smoke the rears constantly.


You say an M3 would beat a Mustang overall based on build quality, reliability, comfort, performance, economy and prestige.

Build quality I will agree with you as a high-end BMW and especially an M car are of very high quality. Reliability sorry I don't agree on that, there is nothing to go wrong on a Mustang, its a smallblock V8 Ford have used for a very long time, the car has no over advanced electronics, it uses a live axle, there is basically very little to go wrong on a Mustang. No huge servicing cost, just oil change every 12,000 miles and thats about it. Wheras the M3 has more technology then you can shake a stick at and as such many more things to go wrong. Comfort thats a hard one, driven M3's and been a passenger. I own a Mustang and have been in others and to be honest I can't put one higher than the other. Now performance, well the base Mustang is practically as quick as an M3, pretty much nothing in it and as soon as you move onto a Roush or Saleen, its bye bye M3. A guy tried racing me in an M3 within seconds I'd pulled bus lengths on him. Thats 530BHP, 510Lb-Ft and the fact my car weighs less against his 344BHP with no torque heavier car. Economy again, my car produces 550BHP and I get 25MPG on the motorway and 14-16MPG whilst thrashing around. Wheras a standard Mustang will do over 30MPH on the motorway and closer to 18MPG normally. So for all BMW's advanced engine trickery it seems to give little benefit to economy. Prestige another hard one and I guess it depends really on the persons oppinion.

Of course the Mustang is a fast cruiser, it is not designed to be a sports car. The fact is however they can compete with sports cars as demonstrated by numerous sources.
You say a decent Supra would kick the Shelby's but, well I've driven a Supra and stock they are crap. So by decent I assume you mean modified, so in thats case lets just modify a Mustang and kick that Supra's butt all over the place. You cannot replace displacement and the Mustang has a lot more over a Supra and I believe the Mustang weighs less too.

You say the Americans cannot build a sports car, then explain the Corvettes, the Ford GT and Race Mustangs? The Z06 laps the ring quicker than lots of other cars. It beat the Ferrari 599, to me this says the Americans have just shown the Europeans how its done and for a lot less money?

Am I a fanboy? Maybe I am little as I suspose owning a Mustang makes me bias. Fanboy no though I've driven many cars and those who say the yank cars don't handle normally have never experienced an American car such as a Mustang or Corvette. I've been on trackdays where Corvettes have destroyed Porsches, thats not to say the Porsches are crap they are indeed amazing cars but what I am saying is the Americans go about a different way with their cars but the result is they can perform and rival the best the Japanese and Europe can throw at them. :)
 
MouseMat2004 said:
Great American cars? where? All I see is large engines in heavy cars. I went to the states last week and almost every other car was a bloody new style Mustang (or a Hummer), It's like a Brit version of a Mondeo!

Thing I also found funny was almost every single movie pretty always has the main character driving some classic American muscle car, you think it's something you'd see everyday. In 2 weeks I probably saw 2, infact I barely saw any car which looked over 5 years old, except maybe Hondas.

As for the OT, I've seen it. I'm no experts on specs and stuff but he sounded pretty fair, seemed to like quite a few of their cars.

You say heavy cars, clearly you know nothing?

Corvette Z06 weighs less than 1400kg.
Roush and Saleen Mustangs weigh less than 1500kg, with supercharged ones less than 1600kg.

A Porsche 911 Turbo weighs 1600kg.
A BMW M5 weighs 1850kg.
A BMW M3 weighs 1550kg.
A BMW 130i weighs 1375kg which is a small hot hatch car.

The only lightweight UK cars on true sports car like an Elise or smaller older hot hatches like the Peugeot 106 rallye, only difference is they are not in the same league as the much quicker cars.

So can you please explain why you think they are heavy, just because it looks big don't make it heavy? ;)
 
Was a good DVD - but last years was better imho.

Found it quite funny that they filled up an old XJ6 like my old one with water! looked great lowered! :D
 
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