KERS and moveable rear wings in F1 2011

Most expected Button to be blown away, but he is right up there with Hamilton.

I seem to recall you thought he would be blown away, I'm not sure about "most" people saying so.

In fact....

I would LOVE to see him at McLaren immediately...if only to see Hamilton humiliate him, just as he did to Heikki this year.

The very definition of a journeyman, though it looks like his journey in F1 is coming to an end.

Some of your 'wisdom' from the pre-season thread in '09, when you were castigating him for having a quick break with his girlfriend. Didn't quite turn out the way you thought it would, did it?
 
I remember thinking that Button would be on-par with Hamilton, or at least keeping him honest. Which is what he is doing. I still firmly believe Hamilton will start pulling away from Button in the points soon enough. Once the WDC pressure starts mounting and other 'chaos theory' factors start playing a role - I just think Hamilton will handle them better than Button will.

"Most" is a vague way to describe it. "Most" of the PlanetF1 troll forums thought Button would be savaged by Hamilton. But those aren't experts. They're not even really F1 fanatics. They're just biased F1 drones wearing spectacles in the colour of whatever their favourite team/driver happens to be that year.
 
If you increase mechanical grip and reduce aero downforce, the extra resources available to the big teams will yield smaller gains. You will eventually find teams who have low budgets able to take on the big (spending) teams. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN.
.

That is only due to the rules though. Spending 10million on aero or 10million on engine. I'm sure engine would see far higher gains. As aero is developed to 98% within the rules allowed

Engine, kers and other developments could see huge gains if development is allowed. These are also aspects outside companies would be interested in and gain relevant research from.

Getting data on aerodynamics from an f1 car, is pretty much useless for any other industries.
 
This post is just for JRS. Other people should ignore this post.

JRS, you will notice that that comment was made BEFORE he won the world title and decided to prove himself at the highest level.

Note: I've taken the liberty of all the compliments directed towards Button, to show that I give him credit where its due.

Up to that point, what exactly was his achievment in F1? 1 race win was it?

I call it, as I see it. If someone does something great, I will call it. You will notice that whenever there is a race result prediction of a wet race...who's name do I put at the top of the list? Clue: starts with B and ends with N.

Proof:

My Predictions
Wet/damp Race: Button, marginally ahead of Hamilton.

The reason for this is that he has proved that in wet races he can use his cool/calm head to make inspired decisions. If memory serves me correct, his first win came in wet/damp conditions as well. This year when we had 3 out of 4 races, wet: Button was leading the title race. All this suggests that the guy is one of, if not the best, when it comes to wet race performances.

Similarly, after Button won 6 out of 7 races, look through those race threads and see if you can find me saying anything derogatory. I dare you.

When he won the world title, try and look for any derogatory comments from me, regarding his performance that season. Yes he was outperformed by Barrichello in the 2nd half of the season, but winning 6 out of 7 races in the first half of the season, warrants a world title in my book. He won the title fair and square as Hamilton/McLaren simply didnt turn up in 2009, which isn't Button's fault.

Before 2010 started, I expected (and still expect) Hamilton to outperform Button. The trend since we have had no rain, has been exactly this. I stated pre-season that Button will be the best No.2 driver in F1, as he is steady and makes few mistakes - these are the qualities you look for in a No.2 driver. This is not a derogatory statement as only 2 drivers in F1 could force Button into the No.2 position. It just so happens that Button has been paired with one of those 2.

Button has more courage than most F1 drivers. Very few drivers would ever want to join McLaren and go head to head with Hamilton, as McLaren is focussed around Hamilton. Even Alonso realised this and got out of McLaren as quickly as he could. If I were an F1 driver, I would NEVER join McLaren. Similarly, I would never have joined Ferrari, while MS was there. But Button has shown that he has "balls". (Compliment to Button.)

Conversely, when Button had a poor start to his career, punctuated with photos proving his playboy lifestyle, it did nothing but convince me that this guy was in F1 to collect a fat pay-check. The proof was in the average results he was attaining, allied to the fact that he seemed to be avoiding the challenge of pursuing a move to a front running team, where he would be up against the likes of Alonso. In the past, all top drivers have sought out the best cars possible. The risk when a driver does this is that it can show him up as being a great driver or a poor driver and usually end his career. Michael Andretti was the best example of this. This might've been the likely reason why Button didnt want to put himself out there.

I still believe that pre-2009, he was a journeyman. Having found himself in the best car, he put it to great use and won a title. He finally got the confidence to move to a front running team, where he would rub shoulders with the best and be compared directly to Hamilton and Alonso. I do not believe he had the confidence to do this before he won the title.

Every single opinion of mine has been based on fact. If Button or any other driver does well, I will say so. If they do poorly, I will say so. If a driver does well, I'm not going to say he was poor. And similarly, if he is poor, I'm not going to say he was brilliant.

I'm a great admirer of Alonso (based on the fact that he broke the strangehold MS/Ferrari (twice), and effectively put MS into retirement), but after he crashed out of Monaco (practise) and after his poor race performance in Turkey, I was highly critical of him. A driver of his callibre shouldnt be crashing out in practise sessions. Even though I rate him as joint best driver in F1.

Hell, I even defend drivers who I dislike. I have a secret dislike for Vettel, yet I defended his move in Turkey, as I felt he did nothing wrong. You would never have guessed this, if you read "that" thread.

If Button beats Hamilton fair and square this year, I will certainly place him in the absolute top tier of F1 drivers. It would be impossible for me not to. I even stated this before the start of the season, but until then, he cannot be considered on the same level.

After sports people achieve something, their admirers grow and people hold them in higher esteem, but until they do achieve something, they are just another 'also-ran'...harsh, but true. Until Button won 6 out of 7 races (in 2009), he did nothing of note, and as such, my opinion of him was low. This opinion which I had is something you are clinging to. As drivers/sports-people achieve, their stock improves. This is what has happened with Button.

JRS...I think you have to move on and not cling to opinions said about certain drivers, before they actually achieved anything of note.
 
People should cut you some more slack sunama. Everyone's opinions change over time - this is not a surprise really.

Just look at how many people have adapted their opinion of Hamilton over the past 12 months. He's gone from being a "unproven car developer and unable to win unless driving the best car and hot headed" to "proven car developer and race winner in worst car on the grid and calm headed, but consistently aggressive racer". Quite a turn around really.
 
People should cut you some more slack sunama. Everyone's opinions change over time - this is not a surprise really.

Just look at how many people have adapted their opinion of Hamilton over the past 12 months. He's gone from being a "unproven car developer and unable to win unless driving the best car and hot headed" to "proven car developer and race winner in worst car on the grid and calm headed, but consistently aggressive racer". Quite a turn around really.

I've become a fan of Hamiltons pace this year but to suggest he developes the car is frankly ridiculous. If anything the lack of testing has shown just how little input the drivers actually have into developement.

It's not hamilton or button that is developing the mclaren it's the sheer depth of resources Mclaren have to turn an average car into a stunning one.

It's the guys that build, design and engineer the car that interpret and act on the limited feedback the drivers give.
 
They don't have as much testing, but drivers will still give feedback from the Friday and Saturday practice sessions though (as well as qually and the race)?
 
They don't have as much testing, but drivers will still give feedback from the Friday and Saturday practice sessions though (as well as qually and the race)?

Yeah they do, listen to it. Listen to Cs Nuts when he said about Vettels driver feedback. I'm understeering through turn x, losing grip through x fast corner.

This isn't the 80's anymore driver feedback on such advanced set ups and designs have next to sod all to do with the drivers bringing the developement along.

It's about designers and how quick you can react to stealing designs and building them from another car. If it was about driver feedback you wouldn't see teams employ also rans to run lap after lap in testing (prior to the ban) and when these guys eventually got a seat in another car you would think they would accelerate the developement but they don't.
 
I've become a fan of Hamiltons pace this year but to suggest he developes the car is frankly ridiculous. If anything the lack of testing has shown just how little input the drivers actually have into developement.

It's not hamilton or button that is developing the mclaren it's the sheer depth of resources Mclaren have to turn an average car into a stunning one.

It's the guys that build, design and engineer the car that interpret and act on the limited feedback the drivers give.

So what about the time spent in the McL simulator where the affect on the cars handling is digitally evaluated by the drivers before being used on the track?

And because feedback is limited from Friday testing, it has to be good.
 
I've become a fan of Hamiltons pace this year but to suggest he developes the car is frankly ridiculous. If anything the lack of testing has shown just how little input the drivers actually have into developement.

It's not hamilton or button that is developing the mclaren it's the sheer depth of resources Mclaren have to turn an average car into a stunning one.

It's the guys that build, design and engineer the car that interpret and act on the limited feedback the drivers give.

I know that but it was a common "armchair expert" theme being banded about not long ago. It was FUD then, and it is still FUD now.
 
I'm sure Hamilton is as good as any other driver for developing the car, and by developing I just mean giving feedback so the McLaren boffins can make the car even better.
 
Up to that point, what exactly was his achievment in F1? 1 race win was it?

There you go again. Always fixated on that statistic.

Remember 2003? He was hugely unlucky not to get that BAR onto the podium at Indianapolis. He had more than a few very good results, and was best of the rest behind the Big Four teams. His qualifying wasn't great, especially after that bloody big smash at Monaco, but he made some great drives through the field in a car that wasn't exactly stellar (plum last up to 9th in Britain, 17th to 8th in Germany).

Remember 2004? Take the Ferraris away from that season, and who d'you find at the top? Heavens - it's Jenson Button. He scored points in all but three races, in fact. His Hockenheim performance - grid penalty for an engine change, came up to challenge for the win before being slowed by a loose helmet strap that was attempting to rip his head off - was absolutely magical. Without a doubt, if the Ferrari had been anything other than crushingly reliable he'd have challenged Schumacher for the title that year.

2005 saw BAR slip a bit, but even then Jenson starred more than once. Imola was good (albeit in a car that the FIA would rule to be illegal with that fuel tank nonsense), his pole lap in Canada was pretty special and he finished in the points 10 times in a row from the French GP onwards. 2006 obviously saw that win that you dismiss so readily as being a mere blip, and then....

The '07 and '08 Hondas were starting money specials. In fact, they were probably worse than that. 2007 saw him struggle to adapt to Bridgestones early on (as did the eventual champion that year, a certain Mr Räikkönen), but once he'd done that then he had the measure of team-mate Rubens. And he was great in France and Italy, along with his wet-weather driving still being superb. 2008 was another struggle, and Rubens probably had the edge on him that year. But it's not as if he just gave up, pootled around at the back of the grid collecting his pay and doing **** all else is it? Both Jenson and Rubens helped the team develop what would become the BGP 001, and kept themselves in a position where they would be able to drive it in 2009.

Anyway. Bored now. Say what you like sunama - Button deserved far more respect in the run-up to the 2009 and 2010 season than you and others gave him. He showed that in 2009 by winning the title and he's showing that now by running The Messiah™ very close this season.

Sorry for contributing to this thread going waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off-topic guys.
 
He showed that in 2009 by winning the title and he's showing that now by running The Messiah™ very close this season.

My belief is that Button raised his game in 2009, once he knew that his car was capable of beating everybody else...something which is natural. In the 2nd half of the season he was outperformed, but over the course of the season, the BrawnGP/Button package was definitely the best ... and that's what counts.

This year, once again, my belief is that the challenge of driving against the fastest driver in F1, along with the full spotlight on him (as reigning WDC), is pushing him even further and as a result making him a better driver.

He has done a sterling job this season, where he has unnerved Hamilton - the last time we saw this was in 2007. He has done his reputation a lot of good by moving to McLaren and running Hamilton so close.

Personally, if I were putting a new team together, with unlimited funding, Button would be the first name on my driver list. The other driver would either be Alonso or Hamilton.

Its quite strange that at this point in time, there is a serious lack of solid No.2 drivers. Massa is the only other guy who I used to rate as top class No.2 driver, though he is currently being dismantled by Alonso and as such, his career (as a front runner) looks like it may be coming to an end. Being lapped by Alonso in Canada, would've been soul-destroying. By rights, Massa should be going wheel to wheel with Button and I do feel that we are being robbed of what could be a great season.

I still believe that we are going to be treated to some epic Hamilton Vs Alonso battles later on this season, the prospect of which is mouth-watering. Those few laps where Alonso and Hamilton were side-by-side in Canada, had my heart pounding as I knew that neither driver would give in lightly.

ps. notice the bold comment. ;)
 
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