Killer Dogs

Dis86 said:
Going to counter the statement with facts or just continue to call people clueless?
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Going to provide facts to back up your statement? Oh, I'm sure you can cherry pick a few cases and then make a blanket statement fueled with some 'but what about the kids' action thrown in..

Is there an epidemic of people being randomly attacked by dogs in the streets and parks of the UK to the point where all dogs should be muzzled when out for a walk?
Does a dog attacking a cat mean that it's likely to attack children?

The point I made was to illustrate how stupid it is to make massive generalisations calling to ban this and that due to the actions of a minority. It's basically the same as people like Chris Wilson screaming about immigration and "send them all back" because a few nutters do bad things.

The fact is that the vast majority of dogs and their owners aren't an issue, and acting like they all have to pay the price because of the relative few that are absolute bellends is dumb.
Relying on assumptions and negative stereotypes is a crap argument.

In 10 years of dog ownership, of course I've seen the type of people that you guys get all up in arms about and I get it. I agree with you when it comes to them. However, I've found that they are a minority and are VASTLY outnumbered by decent people/families with decent dogs, which is why I say that people are clueless when they call for all dogs being muzzled at all times.

That vast majority would be negatively affected by having dogs muzzled and not allowed off the lead in parks. For one, it means that they can't exercise properly. Dogs generally need to run and play, and a walk isn't cutting it. I know mine would be absolutely gutted if she couldn't play fetch on a daily (and rope random kids into playing with her).
Muzzling also makes your dog look like it's aggressive. Fair enough if it is, but most aren't and it'd just reinforce people's fears.

FWIW, my own dog has helped LITERALLY hundreds of random people (90% kids because she especially loves them for some reason) get over their fear of dogs.
Based on that, I'd argue that education is a better solution than something that punishes the majority that are decent owners, while reinforcing the ignorance of people who fear them.

As an example, here's a poorly shot video of her playing with my mum's neighbour's kids the other day.
Years ago, the kids and both the parents were scared because they didn't have any experience with dogs and only had the idea that dogs bite and blah blah. Of course, she'd always run up wanting to play if she happened to be out there when they came along.
So I got to talking with the their dad and showed him what she was really like. He then saw the reality of the situation, got more comfortable with her and encouraged his children to play too.
Now, they run up to get the thrower whenever they see me around and everyone's a winner. Even their dad makes excuses to have a play whenever he see her.


This isn't limited to the kids she knows. This has been a thing in every park I visit on a daily for the past 9-10 years. She loves them. This dog has entertained whole gangs of children at times. Personally, I'm glad the the rules aren't the way you think they should be.

On a side note, she likes cats too. Oh, and the white staffy is a neighbour's dog. He's 11, has been raised with kids and has always been the sweetest dog you could want.

At the end of the day, there's always gonna be bad elements in whatever area you look at. We can all cherry pick to suit our point of view, but dogs are a very popular family pet in this country for a good reason.
While it's terrible that bad things do happen sometimes and there definitely is a scummy subsection of society that likes certain types of dog for the wrong reasons and trains them to be the way they are, these people and these incidents don't reflect the majority, nor should the rest of us suffer because of them.
 
VincentHanna said:
On the rare occassion that dogs maim/kill a child, it generally happens at home, often by a banned breed, whose owner is part of the extended family (brother/grand mother etc)
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Or occasionally in public, but most often where the dog has been deliberately antagnonised or worked up by the now-injured party.
 
Uncle Petey said:
Going to provide facts to back up your statement? Oh, I'm sure you can cherry pick a few cases and then make a blanket statement fueled with some 'but what about the kids' action thrown in..

Is there an epidemic of people being randomly attacked by dogs in the streets and parks of the UK to the point where all dogs should be muzzled when out for a walk?
Does a dog attacking a cat mean that it's likely to attack children?

The point I made was to illustrate how stupid it is to make massive generalisations calling to ban this and that due to the actions of a minority. It's basically the same as people like Chris Wilson screaming about immigration and "send them all back" because a few nutters do bad things.

The fact is that the vast majority of dogs and their owners aren't an issue, and acting like they all have to pay the price because of the relative few that are absolute bellends is dumb.
Relying on assumptions and negative stereotypes is a crap argument.

In 10 years of dog ownership, of course I've seen the type of people that you guys get all up in arms about and I get it. I agree with you when it comes to them. However, I've found that they are a minority and are VASTLY outnumbered by decent people/families with decent dogs, which is why I say that people are clueless when they call for all dogs being muzzled at all times.

That vast majority would be negatively affected by having dogs muzzled and not allowed off the lead in parks. For one, it means that they can't exercise properly. Dogs generally need to run and play, and a walk isn't cutting it. I know mine would be absolutely gutted if she couldn't play fetch on a daily (and rope random kids into playing with her).
Muzzling also makes your dog look like it's aggressive. Fair enough if it is, but most aren't and it'd just reinforce people's fears.

FWIW, my own dog has helped LITERALLY hundreds of random people (90% kids because she especially loves them for some reason) get over their fear of dogs.
Based on that, I'd argue that education is a better solution than something that punishes the majority that are decent owners, while reinforcing the ignorance of people who fear them.

As an example, here's a poorly shot video of her playing with my mum's neighbour's kids the other day.
Years ago, the kids and both the parents were scared because they didn't have any experience with dogs and only had the idea that dogs bite and blah blah. Of course, she'd always run up wanting to play if she happened to be out there when they came along.
So I got to talking with the their dad and showed him what she was really like. He then saw the reality of the situation, got more comfortable with her and encouraged his children to play too.
Now, they run up to get the thrower whenever they see me around and everyone's a winner. Even their dad makes excuses to have a play whenever he see her.


This isn't limited to the kids she knows. This has been a thing in every park I visit on a daily for the past 9-10 years. She loves them. This dog has entertained whole gangs of children at times. Personally, I'm glad the the rules aren't the way you think they should be.

On a side note, she likes cats too. Oh, and the white staffy is a neighbour's dog. He's 11, has been raised with kids and has always been the sweetest dog you could want.

At the end of the day, there's always gonna be bad elements in whatever area you look at. We can all cherry pick to suit our point of view, but dogs are a very popular family pet in this country for a good reason.
While it's terrible that bad things do happen sometimes and there definitely is a scummy subsection of society that likes certain types of dog for the wrong reasons and trains them to be the way they are, these people and these incidents don't reflect the majority, nor should the rest of us suffer because of them.
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So...no theres no negative to muzzling a dog. So you have no counter.
 
So you haven't actually read the post in your rush to try and be clever.

Predictable GD. Ignore everything and try to be a smartarse.

I think you're the one with no counter argument, which is why that's all you've managed to say.
 
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Uncle Petey said:
So you haven't actually read the post in your rush to try and be clever.

Predictable GD. Ignore everything and try to be a smartarse.

I think you're the one with no counter argument, which is why that's all you've managed to say.
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You literally havent answered the question i asked! Youve posted a load of dross about dogs being lovely but still havent answered my question.
 
I have. If you'd like me to go into more detail, then let me know what part is troubling you.
You haven't answered the two questions I asked in the second paragraph. When you're ready...

You also haven't justified your own statement, which isn't really a statement since all you've done is vaguely agreed with someone elses post.

As for 'dross'. I've given you examples of my own experience in ten years of dog ownership, with both my own and the countless other dogs I've encountered on a daily basis.
What have you provided?
 
Uncle Petey said:
I have. If you'd like me to go into more detail, then let me know what part is troubling you.
You haven't answered the two questions I asked in the second paragraph. When you're ready...

You also haven't justified your own statement, which isn't really a statement since all you've done is vaguely agreed with someone elses post.

As for 'dross'. I've given you examples of my own experience in ten years of dog ownership, with both my own and the countless other dogs I've encountered on a daily basis.
What have you provided?
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Ill put it really simply for you. Are muzzles harmful to dogs? Yes or no? If yes, what evidence do you have to support this?
 
Oh, so now it's about dogs being harmed by muzzles? I never said anything about them being harmed and neither did anyone else. See how the argument changes?
No, they aren't harmed by them, but their lifestyle is. I've already explained why and gone into other reasons for it being a poor solution in the post that you continue to willfully ignore.

Now, how about you answer my questions to you and also justify your position on the subject.
 
Uncle Petey said:
Oh, so now it's about dogs being harmed by muzzles? I never said anything about them being harmed and neither did anyone else. See how the argument changes?
No, they aren't harmed by them, but their lifestyle is. I've already explained why and gone into other reasons for it being a poor solution in the post that you continue to willfully ignore.

Now, how about you answer my questions to you and also justify your position on the subject.
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Eh?

That was literally my first point.
 
Guys. C'mon. It's Friday evening ffs. Go grab a beer and start your weekend. Nobody cares about muzzles.
 
Dis86 said:
Ill put it really simply for you. Are muzzles harmful to dogs? Yes or no? If yes, what evidence do you have to support this?
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Yes and No.
It depends greatly on the individual dog and the particular situations, as to whether it's even neccesary...

Some dogs just do not like being muzzled, no matter how much training you put them through - No different to you being forced to walk around with a blindfold on, really.
With other dogs it can cause them considerable anxiety, stress or fear and they can panic or become aggressive - The very things you're trying to prevent by muzzling them... and a muzzled dog can still cause damage.

In general a stressed dog can end up trying to rip the muzzle off in desperation, which can cause it serious injuries... and if it can get it off, you now have a highly stressed and unmuzzled dog, potentially injured and likely in a state of severe panic. Not good.

When out and about, it can affect normal interaction and proper social behaviour with other people and other dogs, never mind what people think when they see a muzzled animal... It's a loving Labrador, not Hanibal ******* Lecter!!

Additionally, a muzzled dog knows it's less able to defend itself if there is an incident, so another cause for panic and anxiety, even fear of other dogs, which immediately destroys months of careful training and socialisation.
Same for anything else it encounters - Muzzling it around children, other people etc, even the vet can teach the dog to fear those situations and again you're destroying any socialisation, instead actively teaching it to react out of fear - That's exactly what you don't do with dogs.

In short, while it can solve some problems, it can also cause many other problems as well.


Evidence.... I suppose all this could be utterly dismissed as anecdotal, although it comes from a life around dogs, including owning five as an adult and having three right now, training them all (for our first one, our instructor was Barbara Woodhouse, if you're old enough to remember her?) and consequently getting to socialise with hundreds of other different dogs as well - The general opinions held and the advice given by all our instructors, KC reps and vets has been summarised above, as best I can.


Diddums said:
Guys. C'mon. It's Friday evening ffs. Go grab a beer and start your weekend. Nobody cares about muzzles.
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Speak for yourself, ya boring bugger... I've got a wife at home with a copy of the Fifty Shades trilogy, and this weekend is 25% off all harnessing kit at DungeonMaster.co.uk!! :p
 
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