Finally, some who gets it.
Kimber cable "how much"
- Thread starter EYEREX
- Start date
But the point is that to the uneducated pallet does a bottle at £200 / £500 / £1000+ taste that much better than something decent at £25 if you don't know how much each costs? I'd like to bet that the average wine novice couldn't accurately rank wines in order of value, and given the chance to price each according to taste then they wouldn't put values nearly so high on them. Value is subjective, based on experience and personal preference and peer pressure too. Hi-Fi cables are no different.
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I think most of us "get it".Finally, some who gets it.
I could buy a £5000 gold-plated toaster with super-duper oxygen-free elements, a built-in mains conditioner to stop any nasty rogue electrons from the power grid contaminating the bread, and a special platinum base to isolate the toasting process from any negative influence caused by the presence of the nearby MDF worktop. This might *subjectively* be "good value" for me *if* I believed in the benefits of such a thing, could afford it and was prepared to pay a premium for it.
Surely the real issue though is whether or not it actually makes better toast than the £10 equivalent I bought from Tescos, or whether someone (or in fact *anyone*) could taste the difference if they didn't know which machine it had popped up from - if not, then you'd be justified in saying that the £5000 toaster *objectively* represents very poor value for money.
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I think there must be too many variable to be able to safely justify spending this sort of money on Hi-Fi equipment.
You would need seriously good front end components.
I am happy with my Monitor Audio system. Sounds fabulous to me. But I am on the fence if more money would equal a better listening experience as far as I could tell.
Would be interested in hearing a hi end system though, just to see what it can sound like.
You would need seriously good front end components.
I am happy with my Monitor Audio system. Sounds fabulous to me. But I am on the fence if more money would equal a better listening experience as far as I could tell.
Would be interested in hearing a hi end system though, just to see what it can sound like.
There are 3 electrical values which can be measured: resistance, capacitance and inductance. All electrical components (including cables) have these properties and they will measure differently for different cables. You can even design amplifiers with an assumption that cables of a certain type are attached and then use the properties of these cables to ensure amp stability - put the wrong sort of cable on and they can oscillate at high frequencies (above audible ones) and they can overload and ultimately destroy themselves. If you want more information on this then just google "conditionally stable audio amplifier" - one that is stable under all conditions is termed unconditionally stable.
A cable may well measure differently, and some may claim exactly what you describe, but doing those things doesn't necessarily make it sound better. For example, if the sound then didn't then gel properly, it might sound an unadulterated mess (I've heard this happen to quite a few high end systems once you put something with a lot of power and energy through them) or even worse, beautifully placed and totally uninvolving (I've heard this too).
I have spent (too) many thousands on hi-fi over the years, and I thought about buying a £400 (second hand) interconnect the other day, but figured I had better uses for the money - even if I didn't know what they were yet (i.e. the money is still in the bank!). The value just wasn't there for me, as I don't listen to music much any more, so I said no. However, if I was earning 10x what I currently earn, my value ratio may well be different. If I was earning 100x my value ratio would definitely be different.
Which is why one needs to sit down and listen to it. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to say "you must buy these cables". The choice is with the customer. If they're sensible then they'll listen carefully and make a choice based on the benefit that this new component brings to the system.Surely the real issue though is whether or not it actually makes better toast than the £10 equivalent I bought from Tescos, or whether someone (or in fact *anyone*) could taste the difference if they didn't know which machine it had popped up from - if not, then you'd be justified in saying that the £5000 toaster *objectively* represents very poor value for money.
Well I've made the offer enough times here to lay on just such an opportunity.
Hi-Fi Listening Day
Venue: Cheadle - nr Stockport, Gtr Manchester
Date: one Saturday in the near future - exact date TBC
Venue: Cheadle - nr Stockport, Gtr Manchester
Date: one Saturday in the near future - exact date TBC
Anyone up for it?
Associate
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Unless someone reading this thread happens to live nearby and has both the time and inclination to attend, I think purely practical considerations will make it rather unlikely, as I'm sure you're very well aware. With no disrespect to yourself, I'm not going to make a 300 mile round trip to settle an argument with some random stranger on a web forum, particularly when this particular argument has been beaten to death for many years, both here and elsewhere, and still continues to rumble on in more or less its original form.Well I've made the offer enough times here to lay on just such an opportunity.
Anyone up for it?
I'd be interested to see you publish your results though, along with your methodology - in particular, what measures you take to preclude the possibility of selection bias.
Are you saying that cables just don't sound different. Or are you saying that they can and do sound different just that spending more than a few quid a metre is just stupid? If it is the second, is that because you believe all cables over a few £ will sound the same?
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I suppose it's possible to contrive a situation where certain cables do indeed sound different, but personally I think it's incredibly unlikely that even the goldenest of ears could detect a genuine audible difference between, say, a £1/metre cable and something 100 or 1000 times the price.
I'm not arrogant enough to state it as an absolute certainty though, that's where scientific objectivity comes in, as represented by double-blind ABX testing - anything other than truly blind testing will inevitably be subject to the effects of the powerful postprocessor between the listener's ears.
This guy has hit the nail on the head
Most people dont realise how much better the sound can be - you only recognise better sound when you hear it for yourself and let your brain accept its better - this is the most important factor - people are very stubborn in defence of the beloved system and how great it sounds - I am the same. Most people hear their systems a lot but not many others
Most people systems in their houses / bedrooms will be way off what it is supposed to be / you are not hearing it how it was intended / designed.
Your room / listening conditions will be miles off what they were intended when all the bits of kit were designed / tested and 9 times out of 10 the components are not from the same company so designed differently.
Therefore if you are not hearing the differences in cables - maybe think / look elsewhere as part of the blame.
Why people **** off cable companies is beyond me - new tvs come out year on year that are maginally better but much more is charged than the previous years model with nothing said other than praise for the new performance. I appreciate these can be measured for black levels colour reproduction against the correct scale - however its your eyes that make you buy Panasonic over Samsung and its subjective opinion that the new TV's are or are not better than the Best TV ever the Kuro.
Why cant it be possible for cable companies to be doing the same - making slight improvements to sell new / more cables, or trying new ideas with materials - look up Van den Hul.
If they dont try and push the boundaries then what are they supposed to do and I am sure every seller wants their top of the line to be considered better than the competition - look at the competition between Audi, BMW, Mercedes - why do you think Audi bought Lamborghini - to associate the 2, I bet they lose money there or barely break even.
I suppose it's possible to contrive a situation where certain cables do indeed sound different, but personally I think it's incredibly unlikely that even the goldenest of ears could detect a genuine audible difference between, say, a £1/metre cable and something 100 or 1000 times the price.
I'm not arrogant enough to state it as an absolute certainty though, that's where scientific objectivity comes in, as represented by double-blind ABX testing - anything other than truly blind testing will inevitably be subject to the effects of the powerful postprocessor between the listener's ears.
In answer to this try ruinning your systems with thin bell wire from B&Q and see if you hear a difference - then try QED Silver anniversary, then try Chord Oddyssey - evey time you try the new one you will hear a difference for the positive
There is 3 different cable constructions there - they are certainly not selling chinese stuff rebranded (well QED might be but I doubt it)
B&Q - thin wire runnign straight along copper - very flat, muffled sound Dad uses.
QED lots of thin wires woven into a rope formation and coated in thicker plastic silver plated copper - more forward bright, harsh sound at top end but more dynamic than cheapo above - definatively better than cheapo B&Q.
Chord - fewer thicker wires, twisted to reduce RFI, coated in 2 layers of plastic silver plated copper - more dynamic again, but far less harsh - can add a lot of audiophile comments here but that is not point of this statement but its definatively better than QED and Cheapo BnQ
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All these car and wine analogies are completely bogus, and altogether missing the point.
If I were handed the keys to two different cars and I were to drive them blind (inadvisable but you know what I mean), without knowing the badge or the price tag, I could easily differentiate between them and repeat that test with the same results all day long.
If you can show that the same is true with different audio cables, you might have a valid argument.
I'm sure it's possible that a very thin speaker cable with very high resistance might fail to deliver the amp's full current, but I'm struggling to understand what other factors could result in a genuinely audible difference. Either way, I'd still maintain that double-blind listening tests under properly controlled conditions are the only way to settle it one way or another.
this is a link to just one of the white paper / tests I was mentioning from Russ Andrews
http://www.russandrews.com/viewinde...&customer_id=PAA0106067012942EYDDZLWLPJKGJXMH
I have not read it but I have read others before, reason listed -they do try to warrant / explain reason why scientifically / tested etc.
As mentioned before I dont use RA / Kimber cable, its not to my liking
http://www.russandrews.com/viewinde...&customer_id=PAA0106067012942EYDDZLWLPJKGJXMH
I have not read it but I have read others before, reason listed -they do try to warrant / explain reason why scientifically / tested etc.
As mentioned before I dont use RA / Kimber cable, its not to my liking
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I could rant at some length about your link, which showcases some of the worst aspects of the audiophile snake-oil industry, but I'll simply ask: Where are the listening tests? What methodology did they use?
I could claim that my product was audibly superior as it was shielded against phased tachyon particles from the Q Dimension, but so what?
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I could almost 100% say BMW Audi etc couldnt give a crpa what cables go in there cars to the speakers.
Coming from someone who spent 4k+ on in car audiophile equipment they sound good to someone who doesnt know a proper system.
Oh and my friend who won all rookie stages when enter then amature used ebay's finest 16awg speaker cable and blew all the "prestigeous" cables away. It's science not hearing.
What captain is saying is how can 16awg cable be and different from a company advestising "special" 16 awg cable?
It the same gauge and therefore same science applys.
Coming from someone who spent 4k+ on in car audiophile equipment they sound good to someone who doesnt know a proper system.
Oh and my friend who won all rookie stages when enter then amature used ebay's finest 16awg speaker cable and blew all the "prestigeous" cables away. It's science not hearing.
What captain is saying is how can 16awg cable be and different from a company advestising "special" 16 awg cable?
It the same gauge and therefore same science applys.
You missed the point regards to cars - I was saying they will compete at every level of their price / performance model - not sound system cabling, where did that come from?
Its interesting you say that about your mate winning the competition - however car audio is normally judged on volume levels / not to my knolwedge on overall sound quality and finesse. The good car systems I have heard sound good but in a limited listening environment - very constraint, with no scale or sound stage - its a different experience
I would also attribute getting better sound in a car to sound deadening / treatment etc which is very difficult at home and the fact its very nearfield listening .
Things to consider in that environment there are very few other electical components inside a car - behind an av rack there are lots causing RFI
16AWG is thick cabling, I like thick cabling I think it sounds better than lots of thin strands woven. Which was my earlier point you missed. Different cabling has different construction - or uses different materials
There is no way 16AWG copper will sound the same as 16AWG silver plated copper so you are missing very importantr factors in your judgement
Maybe the ebay stuff is good, I have not tried it. Maybe your mates system would sound better again using better cable, maybe the competition he won was against guys with pony systems who knows -
what is better though - I have covered this below
Back to the start - some people dont realise what better sound is or have a different opinion on what better sound should be.
To me hearing it exactly as it was intended / hearing things as realistic as it can be is what I am going for - that is the essence of what hifi is intended to do.
Back to Meridian - they take out analogue cabling completely - Why is that - because its the area where there is the most lost / change in sound - they keep the link between source - amplifier / speaker digital as long as possible.
You are not looking at this the right way. That's like (to carry on the car analogy) saying car A is a better drive than car B because it has 50bhp more where clearly you'd also want to know what handling and comfort were like as they feed into the mix.
There is an AWFUL lot of pseudo-science (I've had seriously long arguments with people who think they understand digital audio but know diddly squat and won't back down) and snake-oil in hi-fi. The same arguments are often used to justify high prices for cables.
The fundamental fact is that different cables will sound different. It might only be a small difference, but the differences are there. The human ear coupled with our brain is an incredibly sensitive measuring instrument.
Whether the differences are worth the money or not is another matter.
Nope. 16awg solid core and 16awg multi-stranded have different electrical properties - even if they are made from exactly the same material and construction (except the stranding). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect for just one thing that is affected....
Comparing 16 awg cable made of one material to one made of another will provide very different characteristics. As will the way they are constructed into a multi-conductor cable.
Whilst the effects tend to be small at the lower audible frequencies, they are not zero.
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For the love of god, please stop the car analogies.
How do differeng "handling" and "comfort" (which I could easily identify blind, with or without an extra 50bhp) equate to a supposed audible difference between cables if that difference *can't* be identified blind?The second part of your sentence I agree completely with, which makes the first (an unsubstantiated assertion) even more puzzling. You can debate the construction of cables until you're blue in the face, only blind, reproducible listening tests will confirm whether or not that construction actually results in audible differences.
I feel like I'm repeatedly pointing out the flipping obvious, but I'm in one of those dreams where no-one can hear you screaming.