Kyle Rittenhouse - teen who shot three people in Kenosha

That is completely wrong. Two of the people he shot dead were trying to take him down because he killed someone after hearing a gunshot.

I dont think anyone with this kind of record is trying to make a citizens arrest btw..


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And if hes not trying to arrest him, whats he doing? Assaulting him despite being at no threat at all, as the guy with the gun was running away...
 
That is completely wrong. Two of the people he shot dead were trying to take him down because he killed someone after hearing a gunshot.

I think you need to check your maths there - he killed a total of two people - how can he have killed someone and then killed two more people?

The first person attacked him, he didn't just shoot because he heard a gunshot.

The second person he killed attacked him with a skateboard and tried to grab his rifle - in fact it's not clear whether that in itself caused the rifle to fire - if it was slung and his finger was on the trigger then pulling the barrel wasn't a good move....

The third person he didn't kill, he initialy pointed a rifle at and only shot him (in the arm) when he made a move to shoot the teen with the handgun he was armed with. I mean supposing the guy with the handgun did shoot him dead - then what - surely if you're defending that action (from the handgun guy) then now handgun guy is also a shooter and following your logic is fair target for anyone else with a gun to chase down and kill right? But then they become a shooter too and so on...

He's got a self defence argument regardless - the intent of the latter two - which requires some mind reading in the case of the second killing doesn't negate that.

In fact it seems like the skateboarder guy was with the first attacker - so if he was pursuing before the first shooting then...

Regardless - important points for his defence are that he retreated from all of them and only fired when attacked.
 
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Ok fine, he shot two more people. That would be the correct statement.

Yes, after running away from them and only after they attacked him...

The point still remains that if you're stating that the hangun guy is allowed to chase him down and try to shoot him (i.e. act like a vigilante) even when he's no longer a threat then surely the handgun guy then becomes a shooter too and according to that logic - anyone can now chase down and kill the handgun guy and then they become a shooter too and so on...

In fact if you're arguing for people being vigilantes then isn't that what these militia guys were doing in the first place - like stopping arsonists etc..?

That is seemingly what caused the first incident - the kid stopping protestors who wanted to set fires.

The point that the kid is retreating and only shoots when attacked is fundamental here regardless of any claims of good intentions of the later two attackers.
 
It will certainly be great to see the NBA & NHL pay tribute to hmm I can't work it out, the assailants who died rioting and attacking a boy or the boy trying to defend a small town business from rioters who shot 3 men.

Will they take a knee or stand and salute i dont know?
 
This is why allowing the public to carry fire arms is a daft idea.

Yup - the whole thing is nuts... in fact it does open up to situations where say the guy with the handgun perhaps has a claim to shoot the kid and the kid has a claim to defend himself...

There have been incidents in the US, using castle doctrine or stand your ground where both parties(or indeed multiple parties attacking each other) in a shooting have been found not guilty on the grounds of each of them acting in some manner of self defence....
 
I've two views, one directly concerning the actions he and the victims took and one more holistic view of the whole situation.

Self Defense definition - In US law the general wording is this "[a] person is privileged to use such force as reasonably appears necessary to defend him or herself against an apparent threat of unlawful and immediate violence from another. When the use of deadly force is involved in a self-defense claim, the person must also reasonably believe that their use of deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent the other's infliction of great bodily harm or death" - taken from Wikipedia. There are many variations so this is a generic definition.

1. Actions - All these actions are seen in multiple videos, anything which is still speculation (other shooters involved etc) I have ignored - After having a Molotov cocktail or similar incendiary device thrown at him by the first person he shot (who was still chasing him for 4 seconds after throwing the Molotov and 2 seconds after the first shot was fired), I think he is entitled under US law to act in self defence as he thought his life was in danger (Video of first victim throwing Molotov). After ringing the police (edit - new report he rang his friend) post the first shooting he is then chased by a large group, 2 of which directly assault him (one with a kick to the head and one with a skateboard to the head). Again at that point I think that under US law he's entitled to act in self defence as he thought his life was in danger. After shooting the attacker who had a "weapon" (the skateboard) but not the "unarmed" man who kicked him, he then shoots the last victim who approached him with his own pistol draw and roughly pointing at him so, again, I think that he is entitled under US law to act in self defence as he thought his life was in danger (video of the crowd chase, the skateboard attack and the final two shootings).

Note that the only people he shot were those he could say in a court were directly threatening his life - Molotov thrower, skateboard to head guy and man armed with pistol - and that he didn't shoot any of the other people around him who were also carrying "weapons" such as wooden bats/poles etc as they were not attacking him and were therefore not a direct threat. After trying to hand himself in 3 2 times (phone call post first shooting edit - new report he rang his friend, approaching Police post second shooting and phoning police once home), his actions potentially being classed as some level of self defence due to being attacked by 2 of the 3 victims and the over charging by the DA, I think he'll have a very good chance of being found Not Guilty of the two 1st Degree murders but he'll probably still be found guilty on some far lesser charges as a gesture of mob placation (hoping to avoid a flair up - it won't work) and he'll probably be spending, at worst, a few years in jail.

Lastly, regarding the actions of those who were shot - In each case their actions directly led to them being shot. They were not random "innocent bystanders" stood around who were mercilessly gunned down by some mad-eyed lunatic. Each one did something which directly caused their shooting to occur, either by directly using violence against the shooter (Molotov and Skateboard victims) or being a direct threat (Pistol) which made the active shooter consider them to be a direct threat to his life. Again, the only people shot were those directly threatening him, there were lots of people stood just 10 yards away with wooden batons who he didn't shoot because they were not directly threatening him. In simple terms, if someone has a gun, don't attack them and you'll live or alternatively attack them and you'll get shot - the fact that such a "common sense" phrase even has to be said is amazing but 'Murica I suppose.

2. Overview - He should never have been there in the first place but I think I can understand why he thought he should be even if I absolutely 100% disagree with the decision he made. There is a far bigger discussion to be had regarding why it's mainly Democrat run cities that are allowing these uncontrolled riots to continue for days on end but in this specific example, the chain of failures starts with the failure of local Police to contain the rioting, the failure of the Mayor to back up the Police during the rioting, the failure of the Governor to force the Mayor to back up the Police etc all of which is just inexcusable. With their lack of action they created a perfect storm of failure after failure, something which the shooter had been repeated across Democrat run cities for the last 100 days, and which directly led to the shooter, someone untrained, inexperienced and unrequested by law enforcement, thinking that he was exactly what the situation needed when "law enforcement" seemed incapable doing the job, and now people are dead because of this chain of failures.

I don't think he specifically went out to shoot people, I genuinely think he went there because he thought he could help keep things "peaceful" by being there because, as a 17 year old, he just isn't experienced enough in life to realise that regardless of how he saw himself, others would see him as an antagonist and therefore a target. The legality of his actions on the night can be debated back and forth but in my opinion he should never have been there to start with, even if I can understand why he thought it was a good idea to go.

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I generally dislike threads like these. In my experience they usually just serve as a "meeting point" for two different ideologies to verbally spar, with neither side really caring about the actual event that much but being happy just to have a subject with which to fight each other, similar to the way hooligans use the pretence of a football match to organise fights and where "tribalism" (fighting for your side regardless) is seen as more important than remaining factual and being able to calmly and rationally discuss the event as I suspect will happen here.

Even if that is a Molotov cocktail, it's not lit and hence is no threat. Someone chasing after you isn't necessarily a threat to his life. Even if he grabbed his gun, which isn't clear, he'll have a hard time arguing it was a threat to his life imo. Also how could he shoot him if his gun was grabbed?

How is the man who is following him with a gun any greater threat than himself following the group with a gun?

You're also ignoring the vigilante premeditated nature of the crime. He went to an area where he knew there were protestors with a killing machine in order to intimidate and threaten them.
 
Why are people defending him so much? Or course he was attacked, of course they tried to take his gun, he’d just shot and killed someone. (The video clearly shows he sits up and shoots the 2nd and 3rd people, it wasn’t accidental discharge).

Would these people have defended that terrorist on the bridge in London (the one who was stopped by the guy what a Narwhal tusk) if he had killed one of the guys trying to stop him? Of course not.

I’m sure they would be saying the exact opposite if it was someone with different political beliefs to them doing the shooting
 
I don't think it's molitov cocktail that was initaly thrown by the 1st guy killed, looks to me like a plastic bag with some cans of drink inside from the recap that I've seen
 
...I generally dislike threads like these. In my experience they usually just serve as a "meeting point" for two different ideologies to verbally spar, with neither side really caring about the actual event that much but being happy just to have a subject with which to fight each other, similar to the way hooligans use the pretence of a football match to organise fights and where "tribalism" (fighting for your side regardless) is seen as more important than remaining factual and being able to calmly and rationally discuss the event as I suspect will happen here.
I totally agree. My overriding emotion is one of feeling sorry for all concerned; the 17 year old boy who was put/found himself naively in a situation that lead to the deaths of 2 people, and the families of the deceased. There is too much bravado going around on both sides that just keeps escalating situations till it ends up in this tragedy on all sides.

I've spent much of my time in the States (my father lives there) and I'm so glad I choose to live here rather than there.
 
Even if that is a Molotov cocktail, it's not lit and hence is no threat. Someone chasing after you isn't necessarily a threat to his life. Even if he grabbed his gun, which isn't clear, he'll have a hard time arguing it was a threat to his life imo. Also how could he shoot him if his gun was grabbed?

How is the man who is following him with a gun any greater threat than himself following the group with a gun?

Well if he succeeds in taking it off him then he's quite clearly a threat... he's a greater threat as he's the attacker, the guy with the gun is retreating/trying to get away from them.

"How could he shoot if his gun was grabbed" - by pulling the trigger - it's not clear his gun was grabbed in the first incident just a claim by the witness that the person shot tried to do so. In the second one you can see it being grabbed, in fact that is what might have caused it to fire even.

You're also ignoring the vigilante premeditated nature of the crime. He went to an area where he knew there were protestors with a killing machine in order to intimidate and threaten them.

Based on what? The evidence doesn't show that so far - it seems to back up his claim that the rifle was for self defence and that he's there to provide first aid and to watch over the businesses. If you look at the earlier clips they're happily talking to protestors and saying they're not their enemy eyc.. they're there to help, just don't attack businesses etc.. go attack the cops etc.. see the clip here for example:

https://www.somebitchtoldme.com/post/instigators

It does seem that the fire extinguisher incident is what made him a target if that is indeed him in the clip.

Fire arms have been misused by governments as much as they have been misused by private citizens.

@dowie this is the video I watched

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts43EskooaA

Yeah have seen that one - just wasn't clear that it was Kyle - it does seem the first attacker is in that video too and possibly the skatebaord guy with him... if that is him then that perhaps explains how he became a target for those two.
 
Why are people defending him so much? Or course he was attacked, of course they tried to take his gun, he’d just shot and killed someone. (The video clearly shows he sits up and shoots the 2nd and 3rd people, it wasn’t accidental discharge).

Would these people have defended that terrorist on the bridge in London (the one who was stopped by the guy what a Narwhal tusk) if he had killed one of the guys trying to stop him? Of course not.

I’m sure they would be saying the exact opposite if it was someone with different political beliefs to them doing the shooting

The terrorist on London Bridge attacked people, actively went into a place and tried to kill people. He was then apprehended and the police killed him.

This guy didn't attack people, he retreated when attacked and only killed people who caught up with him and attacked him at close range.

If you're defending the actions of the people who got involved on London bridge re: the terrorists - then presumably you'd defend the actions of this kid apparently using a fire extinguisher to put out a bin fire/stop the arsonists? That's what seems to have made him a target and caused him to be chased.
 
The terrorist on London Bridge attacked people, actively went into a place and tried to kill people. He was then apprehended and the police killed him.

This guy didn't attack people, he retreated when attacked and only killed people who caught up with him and attacked him at close range.

If you're defending the actions of the people who got involved on London bridge re: the terrorists - then presumably you'd defend the actions of this kid apparently using a fire extinguisher to put out a bin fire/stop the arsonists? That's what seems to have made him a target and caused him to be chased.

Surprising how anyone could even try to compare the two scenarios lol.
 
Regardless of the ins and outs of this one - funny the people who get triggered by the merest mention of a firearm and then all objectivity goes out the window.
 
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