LCD, LED or Plasma?

[sunama]

John Lewis in Solihull. They turned the lights down in the viewing side room when I asked them as it was early on Saturday morning, then I played with the settings on the TVs and had a jolly good compare.

Again, what was the source? Did you view SD, HD, Freeview, SKY HD, BluRay?

Traditionally, LCD TVs have always lost points to plasma, when it comes to SD image quality. Perhaps thats changed, but its difficult when people aren't stating the sources used to test the image quality of the TVs.

For the record, I have a Pannasonic 42", 720p set. Great image quality in SD. Good in HD. Comparing it to LCD TVs, it blows them out of the water when it comes to SD image quality.

I have a Panasonic 720p (LCD) projector which looks great with HD sources, but SD image quality really looks bad. I have to "blur" the image to make it look decent.

 

[Participant]

Again, what was the source? Did you view SD, HD, Freeview, SKY HD, BluRay?

SD and blu-ray, looked better on both tbh. One was a Samsung 'LED' (I cannot remember the exact model numbers as I didn't write them down) and the other was a Panasonic plasma. It was purely subjective i.e. no calibration and no proper testing of black levels etc., but if money was not a factor, I would have had the 'LED' TV.

 

[james.miller]

how can you compare uncalibrated displays and secondly how can you recommend or even BUY a set based on that? thats barmy.

 

[sunama]

Did you make a note of the prices of the 2 TVs being compared? It wouldn't be fair if the plasma was £500, while the LCD was £1000. Also, as jamesMiller stated, callibration is VERY important.

 

[Participant]

how can you compare uncalibrated displays and secondly how can you recommend or even BUY a set based on that? thats barmy.

If I'm barmy then 99% of the TV buying population are barmy. Most of the TVs they ever look at in store will be at their out of the box settings. What should I do, tell them I'm not buying a TV unless they calibrate one for me first? I'm just saying what I saw but I know from bitter experience that plasma fans won't like to hear it.

Did you make a note of the prices of the 2 TVs being compared? It wouldn't be fair if the plasma was £500, while the LCD was £1000. Also, as jamesMiller stated, callibration is VERY important.

The LED LCD was around £1500, the plasma was around £1100. Hence me saying if money was not an issue.

I should probably point out that I've ordered a LG42PQ6000 (plasma).

 

[sunama]

If I'm barmy then 99% of the TV buying population are barmy. Most of the TVs they ever look at in store will be at their out of the box settings. What should I do, tell them I'm not buying a TV unless they calibrate one for me first? I'm just saying what I saw but I know from bitter experience that plasma fans won't like to hear it.

Most people do tend to buy TVs, simply because they like the look of them in the showroom. The vast majority will not do any research at all. This would explain that over the last few years, most people have bought LCDTVs, when most reviews all show that at any given price point plasma is superior.

I wouldnt call most people barmy, though they are a bit lazy or perhaps their TV's image quality isn't important to them. As an example, my sister went to into a popular high street store, looked at a TV, looked at the price, looked at its image quality for a few minutes and then bought it. Needless to say, she is extremely unhappy with it, as her primary source is SD material and compared to her 10 year old Sony CRT TV, her brand spanking new LCD TV is terrible.

If you really do want to compare a few TVs, then read the professional reviews and user opinions (AVForum is great for this), first. Make a short list, then goto a showroom and see if they will let you play around with the settings and allow you to test the telly with a bluray or dvd of your choice.

My own method was to simply read the reviews. The professional reviews and user opinions were so overwhelmingly pointing me in the direction of Panasonic Plasma (at my chosen price point: £500), that I didnt even bother to view the telly in a showroom.

 

[sunama]

The LED LCD was around £1500, the plasma was around £1100. Hence me saying if money was not an issue.

My argument there would be that if you had seen the Pioneer Kuro, which comes into the £1500 price range, you would've opted for that, over the LCD. I'm also presuming that HD material was that which you saw, and not SD?

 

[james.miller]

If I'm barmy then 99% of the TV buying population are barmy. Most of the TVs they ever look at in store will be at their out of the box settings. What should I do, tell them I'm not buying a TV unless they calibrate one for me first? I'm just saying what I saw but I know from bitter experience that plasma fans won't like to hear it..

no, what you are doing is only reinforcing 'plasma fans' opinions - that the uneducated buy tv's bassed one one viewing, in less than ideal lighting with nothing like a proper calibrated display.

You have not at ALL proven that the led tv's were better, only that they happend to be the best looking displays there at the time which when running with out of the box settings means diddly squat.

I have seen LED and 'LEDs' in this environment, and for HD TV they seemed to trump plasmas.

** uncalibrated **.

 

[Participant]

My argument there would be that if you had seen the Pioneer Kuro, which comes into the £1500 price range, you would've opted for that, over the LCD.

Quite possibly true.

I'm also presuming that HD material was that which you saw, and not SD?

SD and blu-ray, looked better on both tbh.

You have not at ALL proved that the led tv's were better

When did I claim to have done? All I can do is form opinions based on the equipment and conditions available to me. I am making no categorical statements one way or the other, yet you seem to be responding as if I've said 'now hold on, LED > plasma, full stop'.

And yes, uncalibrated, but how many people bother calibrating their TVs? It's expensive and time consuming. You have to be realistic, not everyone is an AV geek.

 

[james.miller]

the statememnt you made was that the led's trumped the plasmas. It's pretty clear what that statement means, or at least what you implied. Infact the reality is they do not, when calibrated - and thats the difference.

 

[james.miller]

And yes, uncalibrated, but how many people bother calibrating their TVs? It's expensive and time consuming. You have to be realistic, not everyone is an AV geek.

no it is not. calibration doesnt mean you need hardware to do it, it can be as simple as setting the correct brightness and contrast levels and believe me, that takes all of 5 minutes to do. individual colour settings is welcome, but not always a nessesity. face it, unless you've seen one set up even half correctly, you have no basis on which to form an opinion. unless you explicitly state "from what ive seen in store, which of course has no bearing on real-world usage".

I am making no categorical statements one way or the other, yet you seem to be responding as if I've said 'now hold on, LED > plasma, full stop'.

oh yes you did, plasma's being dull and grainy...remember that?

 

[Participant]

the statememnt you made was that the led's trumped the plasmas. It's pretty clear what that statement means, or at least what you implied. Infact the reality is they do not, when calibrated - and thats the difference.

Yes it's clear. The statement meant that the LED screen I saw produced a more pleasing image to my eye than the plasma. You can argue that until you're blue in the face but it won't change what I saw.

Now if you're saying that if you calibrated both then the LED would magically become worse than the plasma, then obviously calibrating plasmas has a far greater positive influence on the image than when you calibrate a LED TV. Surely the LED image would improve if you calibrated that also?

If it's the case that you have to calibrate a plasma more than a LED to get a decent picture, then that doesn't sound very impressive either.

I have however read a review of some Kuro plasma on AV forums that got reference ratings for every category. I'm sure it's great, but until I've seen one I am unable to judge for myself.

no it is not. calibration doesnt mean you need hardware to do it, it can be as simple as setting the correct brightness and contrast levels and believe me, that takes all of 5 minutes to do. individual colour settings is welcome, but not always a nessesity. face it, unless you've seen one set up even half correctly, you have no basis on which to form an opinion. unless you explicitly state "from what ive seen in store, which of course has no bearing on real-world usage".

Ah, if that's all you meant, then I did fiddle with the colour settings on both screens. So I guess I can comment now as both sets were calibrated according to what you just said. Guess my opinion is still invalid due to some other sketchy reason however. And last time I checked, a store is still the real world, especially when I asked them to turn the lights down as per my living room at home.

 

[james.miller]

Yes it's clear. The statement meant that the LED screen I saw produced a more pleasing image to my eye than the plasma. You can argue that until you're blue in the face but it won't change what I saw.

Good, we agree. Now you just have to understand that what you saw in store is not what you'd see at home.

Now if you're saying that if you calibrated both then the LED would magically become worse than the plasma, then obviously calibrating plasmas has a far greater positive influence on the image than when you calibrate a LED TV. Surely the LED image would improve if you calibrated that also?

If it's the case that you have to calibrate a plasma more than a LED to get a decent picture, then that doesn't sound very impressive either.

I have however read a review of some Kuro plasma on AV forums that got reference ratings for every category. I'm sure it's great, but until I've seen one I am unable to judge for myself..

irrelevant. next time you take a look at tv's in a store, make a point of playing around with the levels and taking a quick mental note of how they are set up. remember, they can just as easily calibrate a tv for the worse if it suits them. and believe me, it does happen.

Ah, if that's all you meant, then I did fiddle with the colour settings on both screens. So I guess I can comment now as both sets were calibrated according to what you just said. Guess my opinion is still invalid due to some other sketchy reason however

dont be silly. did you set the colours up using any kind of colour grid or accurate source material? of course you didnt. I could turn the greens right down on a display - oh look, its calibrated? no. And please stop lumping all plasma's and all led's under one catagory. They are not all the same and they do not all come out of the factory with the same picture setup - even two screens of the same models would need slightly different settings in most cases. Also, who cares if you have to ramp one setting right up or down, it makes no difference at all. it's the end product that matters. Something which you'll never see in store unless you're given permission to set the displays up.

...and when does that happen? ill let you in on a secret. My 50pz80 looked very average next to other displays in a certain store, even next to cheaper plasma's. And that's exactly why I, and anybody else with a bit of knowledge in the field, will not make a decision based on anything they see in-store, other than the price perhaps. The kicker was, i saw how that tv was set up - i had a chance to see the picture settings. it was not at factory defaults, and it certainly wasnt anywhere near correct Now, whether that was down to the store or some other customer playing around with the settings who knows, but do you really think the assistants walk around settings the displays up? not on your nelly, not unless they saw something seriously wrong. So what if it was just another customer playing around? what if somebody looked at that display and thought 'no, i prefer this lcd over here' exactly because the colour or brightness levels had been played with previously? do you see the point now?

And last time I checked, a store is still the real world, especially when I asked them to turn the lights down as per my living room at home.

come on, think about it. No it isnt for the reasons ive already mentioned.

 

[Participant]

dont be silly. did you set the colours up using any kind of colour grid or accurate source material? of course you didnt. And please stop lumping all plasma's and all led's under one catagory.

Exactly, of course I didn't, don't be silly. And neither would 99% of AV consumers.

Since you are rightly so concerned with reality, perhaps you could let me know whether or not it's realistic to expect consumers to have to calibrate their new TVs using a colour chart, or whether you think that most people even bother. I'd better stop now because I expect that you will burst into tears if I say I preferred a LED to a plasma once more!

 

[-Ad-]

James and sunama have summed up pretty much everything I think as well.

Also Robbie I must point out that an SD feed in a store will most likely be pretty crap, made up of many long & cheap cables, distribution boxes & splitters, all having an affect on the PQ. It's not like just plugging your tv at home into one cable leading to your aerial/sky dish. The quality of SD sources in shops has always been nigh on shocking in pretty much every store I have been into.

Adding to the calibration remarks, how do you know what an accurate picture looks like if you have never seen an accurately calibrated reference display ? I'm being a bit Kuroist here, but after seeing 8G, 9G sets, and Panasonic Pf10 for over 10hrs over the course of 2 weekends at a reference dealership, I really saw how an accurate picture is meant to look. Not everyone can or wants to do this, but people saying they calibrated a set then compared them as 'calibrated displays' really isn't accurate at all.

I expect that you will burst into tears if I say I preferred a LED to a plasma once more!

Why are you trying to ignite some type of fanboi war , we don't have any allegiance to a particular tech, or need to justify our purchasing decisions to others. We give out the best advice we can from our experience, which with number of users on here is quite extensive

The are plenty of opinions out there on sets from everyone, but there is also a general concensous from random reviewers, professional calibrators, quality and accurate reviews, then of course users/consumers. It's easy enough to read up then make some choices yourself, but plenty still listen to incorrect information from fanbois and those who really don't have anything to offer other than an opinion on why the set they personally purcahsed is the best and should be bought by all. As james has said, grouping either tech type into a fanboi generalisation is totally wrong.

 

[james.miller]

Exactly, of course I didn't, don't be silly. And neither would 99% of AV consumers.

Since you are rightly so concerned with reality, perhaps you could let me know whether or not it's realistic to expect consumers to have to calibrate their new TVs using a colour chart, or whether you think that most people even bother. I'd better stop now because I expect that you will burst into tears if I say I preferred a LED to a plasma once more!

I'm sorry, i thought this was a mature discussion. Motor's and GD are that way --->


I dont expect most people to calibrate a display and i have I already said this more than once. That is a completely different issue - you are clutching at straws lol

this thread is about the best, each technology's advantages and shortfalls. you wrongly based an opinion on displays you've seen in a shop, with unknown settings. You made a blanket statement about plasma's being dull and grainy. You are wrong on all counts so far. I could easily tell you the pro's and cons of each technology if you like, but why bother when you come out with clangers like that!

Robbie, you can prefer whatever you like. It really makes little odds - you're still wrong

 

[Participant]

Well you seem quite uptight and overly defensive about plasmas is all. It's quite easy for you to rubbish opinions because of a lack of scientific methods used behind arriving at those opinions, but the subjective opinion of someone when they walk into a TV store is how 99% of TVs are purchased. You don't like it, but you will never be able to change it.

*Pats james.miller on shoulder and hands him a tissue*

 

[james.miller]

Well you seem quite uptight and overly defensive about plasmas is all. It's quite easy for you to rubbish opinions because of a lack of scientific methods used behind arriving at those opinions, but the subjective opinion of someone when they walk into a TV store is how 99% of TVs are purchased. You don't like it, but you will never be able to change it.

You arent getting it are you? that has nothing to do with the discussion. Those are the same people who'd pay inflated costs for a hdmi lead. Does that mean it's correct because somebody who doesnt know better buys one? on the strenght of what he/she is shown/told in store? absolutely NOT.

... And if you think im a plasma fanboy, you'd better get reading some of my posts and come back in an hour when you've got it right. You couldnt be further from the truth. I dont latch on to any technology like a 'fanboy', and more often than not its the accuser who is in fact the fanboy.

 

[sunama]

Personally, I am waiting for LCD to overtake Plasma as the best panel, for a given price point, as I quite like the idea of LCD tech.

Given that more money is spent on LCDTV R+D, than plasma, I'm surprised that after all this time, LCD still hasnt overtaken plasma, as the technology which offers superior image quality (at a given price point). My suspicion is that the likes of Sony and other smaller companies have backed the wrong horse and can't switch over to plasma now, as they have gone too far down the route of equipping their factories with LCD manufacturing equipment.

Had the likes of Sony decided to go down the plasma route all those years ago, who knows where we would be by now. I strongly believe that the Pioneer Kuros which are so costly, would be a lot cheaper (to stay competitive) and that we would all be benefiting from better image quality than what we have today.

As of now, only 3 manufacturers still manufacture plasma screens - LG, Panasonic (Matsu****a) and Samsung. Pioneer dropped out earlier this year and decided to buy their screens from Matsu****a. I suspect that eventually the other manufacturers will follow suit.

 

[Owenb]

Had the likes of Sony decided to go down the plasma route all those years ago, who knows where we would be by now. I strongly believe that the Pioneer Kuros which are so costly, would be a lot cheaper (to stay competitive) and that we would all be benefiting from better image quality than what we have today.

Sony were in the plasma business for years, they pulled out about ~5 years ago, after 6-7 years of making them. Plasma faced a number of problems leading to LCD domination.

1: It's price *advantage*(a lot of people thing that plasma is more expensive) pretty much vanished once the panels went from 720p to 1080p. The reason the gap closed, and possible reversed is because it was very hard to reduce the size of the plasma cells on a plasma panel.
2: For similiar reasons plasma panels couldn't be made smaller than-32/37 inch. This limits the plasma market.
3: LCD's became much brighter than plasma's, giving them a false advantage in bright showrooms.
4: Screen burn- it was a real issue, especially for a family TV where kids could pause a video/dvd for hours. It was a very easy way to sell LCD's- keep a plasma in the corner of the shop with screen burn!
5: Used less power-"Yes the LCD might be £50 more expensive, but you will save that back in no time due to less power usage, and save the envirnoment!".
6: The Playstation generation. Sony was king of all things entertainment 4-5 years ago when the flatscreen market started to really take off. I can't remember how many times I saw people asking which Sony TV(had to be sony) they should get to go along with their new PS2/3.