legal action against retailer?

BUDFORCE

BUDFORCE

BUDFORCE

Soldato
Joined
3 May 2012
Posts
9,450
Location
Wetherspoons
Morning,

After some advice please.

Hopefully it doesn't get this far and I get a positive resolution, but the way its heading I am not so confident.

I bought a rifle on the 24th April, from a local shop. Brand new item. Since day one I had problems with it malfunctioning. I did try various different ammo types etc to see if it would make a difference, but decided enough was enough on the 6th October (so just within 6 months) I took the rifle back to the shop. I was told the outcome would either be, a refund, replacement or repair.

Since then (now over 3 months ago) I have called 5 seperate times, and visited in person on Saturday just gone.

Each time I am told there is a delay hearing back from "them" (I assume their supplier) - one of the phone calls I got a half message about how they believe the rifle had been dry fired* - and that this is the cause of the issue, and the shop are awaiting photographic evidence of this.

I appreciate you may not be up to speed on firearms but on a .22 rimfire, the pin in the bolt strikes the soft brass "rim" of the round. If there is no round in the chamber, the pin hits the back of the breach of the gun which is hard metal and can cause damange. Admittedley the rifle has been dry fired once or twice, but as a result of the maulfaction itself. The malfuction is caused becuase the magazines do not fit well into the magazine well, which causes the bolt to carry the rounds forward at various angles, miss feed and maulfaction.

The rifle comes with 2, 10 round magazines, both of which behave the same, when 5 rounds are fed into the magazine, the rifle will fire (usually) 5 rounds without fail, when 10 rounds are put in, the added strain on the spring and pressure causes the magazine to not fir property, and almost always malfuctions on the first few round.

Anyway, short story is the dry fire excuse, if that is the road they try and go down, is completel rubbish and has nothing to do with the issue and is an attempt to not honour the warranty. This is backed up further by the fact when only 5 rounds are put in the rifle works almost flawlessly.

I have also submitted an email to the shop using their website message system on Saturday, but have yet heard back.

So.....I am contemplating take this further and potentially going down the legal route.

Have anyone had any experience with this type of thing, pointers or advice?
 
peterwalkley said:
Read here: https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court/

I had to go this route years ago to get a refund from a shop who supplied a broken gas fire and tried every stalling tactic they could to avoid fixing it. They eventually cracked and repaid me two days before it would have gone to the court.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks, so looks like it might worst case cost a few hundred quid even if I loose.

The value of the rifle is £460 and would only be trying to claim for the value of that, nothing more.

I think the next step is to try and agree some kind of deadline and then next put the intention for legal action in writing to them.
 
TheOracle said:
Did you pay on a credit card by any chance?

If you go through the small claims court, just be mindful of the fact the courts are running 6-12 months behind schedule. I'm currently dealing with the solicitors, police and courts at the minute and have been for nearly a year now. Can't say anything more at this stage, but my god will it make for a hell of a forum post when it's finished.
Click to expand...

Yup buy most things on credit card, frustraitingly would have been my amazon credit card I have now closed the account.
 
Good afternoon,

Thank you for your email.

The issue is caused by the magazine not fitting well into the magazine well/rifle. When 5 rounds are placed into the magazine the rifle fires fine.

When 10 rounds are placed into the magazine, the added strain causes to the magazine to not seat well into the rifle. When the rounds are carried forward by the return of the bolt, due to the magazine flexing, they are not always carried straight, which is what is causing the malfunction.

The rifle will fire fine with only 5 rounds placed into the magazine. When you place 10 into the magazine and hold the magazine in place with one hand, it will also fire fine. This would indicate the issue is not due to that as described in the below.

Further to that, any dry firing that has occured is a result of the malfunction, as described above. You cannot blame the end user for secondary damage caused as a result of a malfunction. You should not have to hold the magazine in by hand whilst firing, nor have to inspect the chamber to ensure there is a new round in each time, the product is simply not fit for purpose.

I have waited over 3 months for this reply, as the vendor of the product my legal contract is with you, the rifle was purchased as new, and was returned within 6 months.

Can you please confirm how you are going to resolve this?

Regards







From: THE SHOP
Sent: 12 January 2023 13:25
To: ME
Subject:Fwd: Chiappa

hi
just had this email resent to us as it had been marked as junk

****


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject:​
RE: Chiappa
Date:​
Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:02:01 +0000
From:​
THE SUPPLIER
To:​
THE SHOP

Hi ****
The below rifle arrived back with us this morning and has been inspected by our gunsmith.
He has found the issue that causes all the below issues.
The user has been dry firing the rifle which deformed the barrel at the edge of the chamber,
This burring in turn creates difficulties for the round to feed, be seated correctly and ejecting.
The customer would need to get a gunsmith to repair the chamber.
Unfortunately, this is not a warranty issue.
I've attached some photos for you of where the damage is located.
 
They replied already:

Hi xxxxxxxx, thank you for your email concerning the problems with your rifle, as you know we sent the rifle back to the importers, their repair specialists have stated that the damage is caused by dry firing the rifle, they have not mentioned in the report any problems concerning the magazine, I will forward your comments on to the importers and ask him to take another look at the rifle which I believe is still in their possession, I apologise for the delay that you have encountered previously with this problem, I am told this is due to the fact that the importers were shut down early for Christmas and have had a large backlog to deal with. I will ask them to have another look at the rifle in view of your comments and report back as soon as possible as a matter of urgency, if the importer is still saying that the problem is down to the rifle being misused then we really do not have any choice other than to except their decision, in this case the only thing that I can suggest is that you take the matter to court, if you do this we will pass the matter on to the importers and co-opt them into any court proceedings, if the court then decide in your favour any compensation ordered will be passed on by us to the importers as it is their decision not to deal with this matter under warranty, unfortunately our hands are tied. Hopefully it will not come to this and we can get the situation resolved. We will get back to you as soon as we hear back from the importers. Kind regards.
 
hillbilly2 said:
@BUDFORCE can you post the pictures?
Click to expand...


Yup:

m4.jpg


m4-chamber.png
 
Feek said:
Good, when you get a refund, go and see Joe (if he's still alive) at the Gun Shop in Barnet (if it's still open) and buy a pre-fettled 10/22 :)
Click to expand...

I know that shop, used to live down the road in New Southgate, grew up there my folks live about 20 minute walk away. Intact I bought an air rifle there before I had my license, yea as you say good guy.
 
Fuming:

Good afternoon,

Thank you for considering this claim.

I purchased a brand new rifle on the 23rd April 2022 from (the store). I have attached the receipt, the transaction total is higher as other items were purchased, but the value of the rifle, as new, was £465, as shown on the receipt, which is the total I wish to claim for.

I returned the rifle in store on the 6th October 2022, which is within 6 months of purchase. The product from day one was simply not fit for purpose. I have attached emails describing this.

When I returned the item in store I was told by (guy at store, not the owner), that I would either get a refund, replacement or repair.

Between the 6th October, and today I have rang the store on 5 seperate occasions and a visit in person to the store on the 7th January trying to get an update. Each occasion I was given some kind of excuse or that they would chase up their supplier.

I have attached email correspondence to the store and back on the 12th of January after finally getting hold of an email address. The store are blaming me for the damage, which isn't true. I have replied (as attached) where I am disputing this, and have yet to have any further response.

As of today, well over 3 months from the date I returned the item, I am still not in possession of the item nor had any form of resolution from the store.

The retailer have my money, and have now had the item since the 6th of October, they have gone out side of any "reasonable" amount of time to provide me with a response, and I feel they are trying to get out of honouring the warranty or their legal responsibility as a retailer with regards to my consumer rights.

I have attached the receipt, email exchanges, and google time lines for phone calls and visits to store.

If there is any further information you require please do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind Regards,

I am updating you in relation to your Section 75 claim against (the store)

(store owner) has responded and advised the following : The rifle was damaged by Dry firing, this means that the rifle has been fired without a cartridge in the chamber, as this is a rim fire rifle, dry firing the rifle without a cartridge in the chamber results in the firing pin hitting the rear of the chamber instead of the rim of the cartridge as it should, this has resulted in the damage to the rear of the chamber.

(Store) have sent the rifle back to the wholesaler who inspected the rifle themselves and have also confirmed that the damage is due to misuse and is not a warranty claim

The damage can be corrected costing the customer approximately £250 but as the damage has been caused by miss use they cannot accept any claim under warranty to have the rifle repaired.

The operating instructions supplied with the rifle are very clear on how the rifle should be operated.



As (the store) are not willing to assist in this claim, you have two options :



1.Agree that (the store) correct the damage at a cost to yourselves of approximately £250



2.When the gun is back in your possession provide us with an independent expert report that confirms that the Gun you purchased has a manufacturing fault. The report should verify the problems you are experiencing and outline what has caused them. As (credit card company) do not possess the expertise in Guns we are unable to proceed with your claim or pass judgement on the claims validity without advice from an independent engineer qualified in this field - Independent reports should be sourced by yourself and at your own cost. This cost would be refunded to you as part of your claim amount should the claim be successful.

Your local Trading Standards department may be able to provide further information about qualified inspectors within your area - Once you have obtained the report please forward a copy to : credit card email address



I understand you may be disappointed with this outcome, however, feel we have acted in a fair and reasonable manner.


So basically taking the side of the retailer.

Also the part above about the store inspecting the rifle is not true, the store did not inpsect the rifle at any point, simply sent it to their supplier and relied on what they were told. It's all awfully convenient particularly as I dont have possession of the rifle.

I know the credit card company is FCA regulated so I will raise it as a complaint, I somehow doubt there is any way I can appeal against this decision now.

Any thoughts?
 
Ive sent this, worth a go:

Good afternoon,

Thank you for your reply.

With regards to the points below:

"The rifle was damaged by Dry firing, this means that the rifle has been fired without a cartridge in the chamber, as this is a rim fire rifle, dry firing the rifle without a cartridge in the chamber results in the firing pin hitting the rear of the chamber instead of the rim of the cartridge as it should, this has resulted in the damage to the rear of the chamber."

At no point have I ever denied this. The rifle dry fired as a result of the rifle missfeeding. The dry fire happened due to the magazines not fitting correctly/too loosely fitting into the rifle, NOT due to misuse. To use an analogy, if you purchase a washing machine, and that washing machine developed an electrical fault, which then set the washing machine on fire. To then blame the user for setting the washing machine on fire. The claim (the store) are making does not prove anything. I am well aware of the operating instructions and as such have never dry fired the gun with intention, as I understand the potential damage this could cause.

The reason the dry firing occured, and root cause of the malfunction, is due to the magazine not fitting well. When rifle is fired, gas pressure forces the bolt back, behind the top round in the magazine, as the gas pressure is released, the counter force of the spring pushes the bolt back forward, catching the back of the round from the top of the magazine, and feeding this into the chamber. As the magazine does not fit well into the rifle, the top round does not always sit perfectly level. As it is not level, the bolt will push the top round towards the chamber at varying angles, and "miss" the chamber, causing the rifle to jam and missfire, or for a round not to be loaded, which in turn can result in the rifle being dry fired.

When I returned the rifle in store, (the guy at the store) at (the store) had a look at the rifle and agreed the magazines did not fit well, and suggested from experience it may be due to a mismatch of batches or a faulty batch of magazines.

(the store) have still made no further comment with regards to the magazines not fitting correctly. As previously stated I have made numerous phone calls, emails and a visit in person.

"(the store) have sent the rifle back to the wholesaler who inspected the rifle themselves and have also confirmed that the damage is due to misuse and is not a warranty claim"

The above statement would suggest that (the store) inspected the rifle themselves, but as far as I am aware, after the rifle was handed into Mark (and see above comments) it was sent to their supplier as (the store) also believed that this was a issue the magazine. As I understand their supplier, are still in possession. If (the store) inspected the rifle and also came to the conclusion as they are stating above, could it please be confirmed when, and why this was not communicated?

Given the above, can this decision please be reconsidered?

Thank you

ME
 
Yup thanks all.

Guessing you guys are probably right, but thought I'd give it a go, next step will be to get the rifle returned........

I guess if I get messed around on that, eg ask for the item to be returned, and no reply within say, 2 weeks I can go back to the CC company and that will go in my favour.

Frustratingly I'm betting the store will charge me for sending the firearm back and forth, despite no mention of this to me prior, but they have to send it by RFD which mean I'll be further out of pocket, for now...but I'm guessing if they do try to charge me I have no way avoiding this.
 
So I did get a reply on Wednesday last week following me email as per the most recent spoiler above:

Dear ME



Thank you for your email and providing a greater understanding of the malfunction.

As we have little knowledge of guns, please confirm if the magazine, that you advise has caused the damage, was purchased from **** with the gun.

Then my reply to the CC (this is still wednesday last week)

Good morning,

Thank you for your quick response.

Yes the magazines (the rifle is supplied with two) are sold with the rifle as new, and are part of the product as such. The results with both of the magazines are the same in terms of the issues described prior.

Thank you for looking into this, I do appreciate it.

If needs be I will be taking the rifle to an independent expert, I would rather avoid the whole ordeal and allow **** to settle this without having to go down that route, as I am sure you can appreciate.

I am also somewhat concerned about getting the rifle returned given the communication (or lack of) I have experienced ****, I assume they would have to return the item if requested in a timely manner, as the rifle is still my property?

Thank you

ME

The CC just then sent a reasonable generic email saying comments noted and passed to the retailer, and will be in touch when they hear back. At least they are entertaining the further arguement, which is good.

Jump to today, I have sent the below chaser:


Good morning,

Just wondering if there is any response from **** given we are another week forward please?

I did have a look at consumer law and as the product was a brand new item, and returned within 6 months the owness is on the retailer to prove the issue wasn't present from new.


I am wondering if any consideration can be made for timescales, considering they have had the product now since the 6th October 2022, that is nearly 4 months with no real progress, and if this would go outside of what can be considered a reasonable amout of time to get a resolution?

Thank you again,

ME

I am pushing on timescales to see if the CC company will just agree it has simply taken to long, given they have now had the rifle nearly 4 months.
 
bit more on this:

got an email from the store today:

hi

your rifle is here to collect

****

Nice and vaugue, and **** poor grammar but whatever..... So I have sent the following to the CC company.

Good afternoon,

I hope you are well.

In addition to the below, I have now received the attached email from ****.

I just wanted to check in with you for guidance that if I go and pick up the item this would not affect the claim which is currently in progress eg: this wouldn't form some kind of acceptance?

Thank you again for your help so far.

Regards,

ME

As I feel its worth checking in with them first.
 
Well... long story short.

I picked up the rifle, and took it to the rifle range to test it before sending it off to an expert. The vendor or their supplier, have intentionally damaged the chamber. They literally must have been slamming the bolt and firing pin into the back on the chamber over and over, and now I can barely even get a round into it, even by hand, the gun is completely ruined.

The rifle was nothing like this when it left my possession.

I had a look on google reviews of the supplier, and there is a review on there from what is claimed to be an owner of a gunship, saying that this supplier had done similar to them.

Unfortunately I have no way of proving this, admittedly I went in naive, but I had NO indication I would get messed about like this, quite the opposite before handing the rifle in.

The credit card company have basically said I still need to take it to an expert, and are now giving me a blanket response. I can't do that, because on the face of it, it now very much does look like I have caused the damage by missuse. The credit card company said that I need to take up the fact they had caused the damage with the vendor, which is pointless.

They are *******, they knew damn well that (in the condition I left it anyway) if I had taken it to an expert they would have put a report in my favour.

Absolute scum bags.

Unfortunately there is nothing more I can do now, other than maybe try to repair it myself to get it back at least to the semi operational state it was in.

I might throw in a complaint to the CC company aswell, it wont get me anywhere, I know it wont, but I can forward that to the FOS and it'll cost them £350 whether its upheld or not, I kinda feel like if I have to go down I am taking them with me.

Lesson learned, take photos/videos etc, I and never assume what you think it a reputable vendor isn't a cheating lying scumbag.
 
Yup sorry, I took no photos prior to handing in the rifle, the photo I posted is the one the vendor received from the supplier.

The condition is now as returned is as per that photo, so theyve intentionally damaged it, then taken the photo.

Unfortunately I have no photo of it before.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Damn.

TBH I would always grab some proof before sending something back.

So you can't ask a gunsmith to repair it then?
I guess the issue to me is, if the magazines are dodgy then its only a matter of time before you end up in the same position again right?

Your last resort I guess is craft a very good letter before action. If your resigned to no positive outcome from the shop then you have nothing to lose.
Your contract is with the shop and not the manufacturer. You can take the shop to court, since when you returned it to them it was your property, whilst in their care it was further damaged.

Personally after this I would be posting on every possible forum about now poor the guns are.
Click to expand...

So what they've done is whacked the back of the chamber so much instead of the "hole" being round, there is a little indent sticking out inside which is making it very tight for the round to go in, as I now have nothing to loose I'm going to try and take a de burring tool to it.

There is no point paying a gunsmith to fix it, as it'll be £££££££ to end up with rifle that still doesn't work very well. However I might be able to get it back to the state it was previously, maybe.....

I'm not going to pursue further no point, I strongly suspect it was the supplier not the vendor, that damaged it, although I suspect the vendor is quite happy to be complacent about the whole thing.

Looking at that Google review for the supplier, they clearly done this before to avoid honouring a warranty, absolute scam artists, really dodgy.

Very disappointed the CC company didn't want to know either.
 
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