Looking for 24" - Samsung B2430H/P2450H or BenQ VW2420H/EW2420?

[crackerbear]

First off, I'll have to apologise for the long post.

I've been reading a lot of reviews and threads across many forums and sites over the past few days, but I still cannot decide on which monitor to buy.

I'm looking for a 24" monitor @ 1920 x 1080 (ideally 1920 x 1200, but I know they cost the Earth now) with preferably a non glossy screen and a budget of around £170, so screens like the Dell U2311H and any 120Hz panels are out of the question, sadly. I could stretch to a max of £200 if the monitor suggested is very very good.

My primary use will be gaming, usually fast moving fps's, but I also watch a fair amount of films. I do a little web work on the side too, but the former 2 activities far outweigh this.

From what I've seen at this price range, the ones that caught my eye are (including cheapest prices I can find):

Samsung B2430H £166.99
Samsung P2450H £172.48

BenQ EW2420 164.23
BenQ VW2420H £166.59

Some outsiders:
Samsung BX2440 £178.64
Acer G245H £179.99

I'm aware PCM2 and some others on this board have been particularly vocal about B2430H over the P2450H, but I'm not exactly sure why since both appear virtually identical to me aside from aesthetics.

The reflection off the thick bezel of the P2450H (as noted by the Prad review and several user comments either on Newegg or Amazon) slightly worries me, as seen here:



However the lack of a tiltable stand on the B2430H is also a cause for concern as I do not know how it will sit on my desk.

Both the P2450H and the B2430H are TN panels with fast response times, so they should fit the bill for gaming, but then I read up on the BenQ models with their superior colour and contrast ratios as they're VA panels with LED edge lighting.

As I understand it, BenQ EW2420 and VW2420H both use the same panels so presumably the visual quality and performance will be the same. Spec wise, the BenQ models appear to be much better than the Samsungs, bar from response time which is quoted as 8ms GTG with a rise+fall of 25ms. Several reviews do claim there are some visible defects because of this:

From TrustedReviews (on the VW2420H):

In games we found some minor overshoot on the fringes of fast moving objects, but on the whole only the most motion-sensitive people are likely to worry.

From ExpertReviews (on the VW2420H):

Watching our test videos, including a mix of 24, 25 and 30fps material, we certainly didn't notice any ghosting during fast-paced sequences. Playing Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2, we saw a tiny amount of blurring when panning, but nothing that would cause even avid gamers concern.

From PCWorld.in (on the VW2420H):

Text that scrolls by fast (as in really fast) can get hard to distinguish, as borne out by PixPerAn tests and possibly attributable to the monitor's response time of 8ms. However, there was no noticeable blur or ghosting in games and movies – it remained visually sharp, audio remained in sync while watching movies, although there was miniscule mouse lag in fast-paced FPS games.

From Beyond3D Forum, by a user called Grall (on the EW2420):

Being VA, it features better color accuracy, viewing angles and contrast than the cheap and ubiqutous TN panel type, but also slower pixel response time. Noticably slower in fact, particulary on dark colors, where noticeable smearing occurs when gaming. If this bothers you, well, then you're in a bit of a bind as TN monitors are faster but give sh.ite contrast in dark areas instead, so you're hardly any better off really!

I myself am not bothered by the smearing, I've played on much worse panels from years past than this one just fine. Also, the degree of ghosting varies a lot from game to game. A mostly bright and colorful - and very very fast-paced - title like Team Fortress 2 plays really well on this screen, I don't really notice any ghosting here. A darker game like Half-Life Ep. 2 reveals more artifacts, but it's still not an issue; the screen never becomes a mess.

These all seem fairly minor, except for Grall's review. The problem is I've never owned a LCD before so I cannot judge how sensitive I am to ghosting/lag, however I do game to what I would consider a fairly high level in first person shooters and I do tend to notice minor details.

The other thing that could be a potential problem for me is that the BenQ screens have a semi anti-glare coating, so it's in between glossy and matte. I haven't seen the screen for myself obviously so I cannot judge how reflective (i.e. annoying) it will be.

As for the outsiders; the Samsung BX2440 on paper seemed to be the "better" model of the B2430H, being LED edge lit and having a fully maneuverable stand (hence the marked up price tag), but user reviews on Newegg are not very encouraging. The Acer G245H also appears to be a very good TN panel according to this fairly comprehensive Youtube review, however the glossy screen casts some serious doubts about the screen for me.

Does anyone care to shed some light on these models and help me decide which is better?

Thanks for any help.

 

[Exsurgo]

B2430H is great for gaming in my experiance. And the stand is actually tiltable.
Also a lot of the LED contrast is at overly high brightness levels that would probably be too high for general use.

 

[PCM2]

Those reviews don't have the depth I require to make an informed judgement on the BenQ *VA panels. They don't seem to so much as mention the inevitable 'black crush' issues that these *VA may well suffer from and it seems to be largely based on the fact that the panel is something new and something different - this doesn't make it ideal for your uses. BenQ's PR department haven't managed to give me any review samples yet so I wouldn't like to recommend them - either way the build quality of the Samsung monitors is bound to be superior. My thoughts on the EW2420 here. I can state that as fact for the B2430L vs. VW2420H as the VW2420H uses the same cassis as the V2420 with a gold coloured ring on the base instead of silver and presumably slightly more weight.

Regarding the P2450H vs. B2430H http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=17567408&postcount=7. And the BX2440 is one to avoid due to the overzealous backlight - lighting from the backlight suffers particularly poor uniformity and colours appear bleached (overly high gamma).

 

[crackerbear]

B2430H is great for gaming in my experiance. And the stand is actually tiltable.
Also a lot of the LED contrast is at overly high brightness levels that would probably be too high for general use.

Ah, I was under the impression the B2430H had a totally fixed stand. Numerous Newegg comments say it isn't tiltable, I guess they weren't trying hard enough?

 

[PCM2]

Exactly. Like most Samsungs it is stiff and they are scared of breaking it. One hand on the base and the other at the top of the monitor tilting is all it takes.

 

[crackerbear]

Those reviews don't have the depth I require to make an informed judgement on the BenQ *VA panels. They don't seem to so much as mention the inevitable 'black crush' issues that these *VA may well suffer from and it seems to be largely based on the fact that the panel is something new and something different - this doesn't make it ideal for your uses.

Whilst the current available reviews are certainly lacklustre and I don't doubt your own experience, but is it a possibility that the reviews haven't mentioned the "black level crush" because there really isn't one for these particular VA + LED panels? Or just unnoticeable compared to a regular TN?

There are some shots of the grayscale can be found on this Chinese "review". I'm not sure how indicative those results are as they're certainly not conclusive.

BenQ's PR department haven't managed to give me any review samples yet so I wouldn't like to recommend them - either way the build quality of the Samsung monitors is bound to be superior. My thoughts on the EW2420 here. I can state that as fact for the B2430L vs. VW2420H as the VW2420H uses the same cassis as the V2420 with a gold coloured ring on the base instead of silver and presumably slightly more weight.

It's a shame BenQ haven't sent a sample out to you as I'd be very interested to know how it really fares, especially since (as far as I can tell) you have actually seen/tested the B2430H in person so you can actually compare the two. Everyone, including me, are just making assumptions and conjectures at these models based on either their specs or older/different models made by the same company.

Regarding the P2450H vs. B2430H http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=17567408&postcount=7. And the BX2440 is one to avoid due to the overzealous backlight - lighting from the backlight suffers particularly poor uniformity and colours appear bleached (overly high gamma).

The Samsung BX2440 and the Acer G245H were just some after thoughts I added to my original post - some models that I'd glanced over that seemed potentially good, but really I'm mainly looking between the BenQ's and the Samsung P2450H/B2430H.

I think unless there's a substantial difference between the Samsung P2450H and B2430H, I'd probably get the cheaper of the two. The same for the BenQ models. It's just currently I'm torn as to which model (between the brands) is better.

 

[CaptainCrash]

Whilst the current available reviews are certainly lacklustre and I don't doubt your own experience, but is it a possibility that the reviews haven't mentioned the "black level crush" because there really isn't one for these particular VA + LED panels? Or just unnoticeable compared to a regular TN?

There are some shots of the grayscale can be found on this Chinese "review". I'm not sure how indicative those results are as they're certainly not conclusive.

There seems to be some confusion about what's meant by "black crush" in the context of *VA monitors.

Black crush, or "crushed blacks" if you like, can firstly refer to a general inability to distinguish between "degrees" of black (if you can have such a thing) and various shades of dark grey. I originally encountered it when evaluating LCD TVs when they first became available at relatively affordable prices - it causes "holes" in the image which are devoid of detail, regardless of however much you play with the settings.

However, it's now also come to be used for a *specific* problem which is native to all *VA monitors to a greater or lesser extent - due to the pixel structure, the image appears darker and loses detail when viewed immediately *on* axis compared to at an angle. You can see it's an effect of the panel elements, as the top-bottom dark "bar" follows you as you move from left to right, while keeping your line of sight perpendicular to the screen.

It's a particular nuisance with widescreen PC monitors, as you'll probably be sitting close and the difference in viewing angle between the left/right edges and the centre will be accentuated, and it can be difficult if not impossible to obtain a consistent image quality across the width of the panel.

This effect is also variously described as "gamma shift" or "contrast shift", which might actually be better terms to use in order to avoid confusion with the more general meaning of "black crush".

This is the sort of thing:

Eizo S-PVA monitor

(original)

It also applies to video images - see how the fat boy's face darkens and actually *loses* detail as the viewpoint approaches perpendicular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC7EozTCGSQ

Like so many of these characteristics, it bothers different people to different degrees... the trouble is, once you know it's there, you tend to look for it and usually find it, so my apologies to people who were previously happy with their expensive *VA monitors.

 

[crackerbear]

There seems to be some confusion about what's meant by "black crush" in the context of *VA monitors.

Ah you are indeed correct about my misunderstanding of what PCM2 meant of "black crush", I thought it was the problem where shades of grey appear black.

Thanks for your post, it was most informative and also distressing at the same time. That somewhat puts me off the BenQ's now. I guess I'll just have to wait for a proper review to arise to see if they mention the extent of the shifting.

 

[CaptainCrash]

I wouldn't get *too* distressed, at least to the extent where you write off all *VA panels as a bad job - the example above is an extreme one designed to highlight the issue, and many people don't even notice it in day-to-day usage.

It's more likely to cause you problems if you're heavily into photo-editing, and calibrating the panel correctly for the centre makes it go wrong at the edges (and vice versa).

 

[PCM2]

Yes - sorry for the confusing terminology. I think gamma shift is a more apt term for it and thank you very much for the excellent explanation CaptainCrash. I am really excited about the EW2420 actually and I don't want to sound so negative but I'm sure you can understand my skepticism based on my previous experience of similar panels. It's nearly that time again to chose a 'monitor of the month' and hotly promote a particular panel - the EW2420 and BenQ's other new panels really do offer something refreshingly different within a tempting price bracket. I just want to test the damn thing! I could just buy one myself I suppose. That would be a little extreme but it's not massive amounts of money for me at the moment.

 

[crackerbear]

I could just buy one myself I suppose. That would be a little extreme but it's not massive amounts of money for me at the moment.

Do buy one and review it, you'd save me £160 odd

Jokes aside, I may wait a little longer before buying a monitor. I was set to buy one next Monday, but the lack of decent reviews on the BenQ's have left me apprehensive.

 

[Legend]

The reflection off the thick bezel of the P2450H (as noted by the Prad review and several user comments either on Newegg or Amazon) slightly worries me, as seen here:

Is this reflection issue not an issue on the B2430 either? I'm looking at both of these, and generally prefer the look of the 2450, but looking at pics of the 2430, they both seem to have same thickness of bezel, or is that not the case?

 

[PCM2]

I can't think of a single glossy bezel monitor where this isn't an issue, particularly Samsung ones. I tend to filter it out now anyway - doesn't really bother me.

 

[crackerbear]

I can't think of a single glossy bezel monitor where this isn't an issue, particularly Samsung ones. I tend to filter it out now anyway - doesn't really bother me.

I think it's possibly more pronounced on the P2450H because it has a slightly deeper bezel? I've not found or seen any photos around of the B2430H with the same angle to directly compare, but no user reviews have mentioned the problem.

If they are the same then my biggest worries of the Samsungs (tiltable stand and that distracting reflection) are pretty much null and void. So it'll essentially come down to the aesthetic between the Samsungs and which is cheaper, if I can decide between them of the BenQs.

At this point in time I think I'm leaning to the Samsungs, the user comments here put me off the BenQs a bit:

Playing counterstrike, the lag is somewhat noticeable compared to my old Belinea TN screen. The colours are better and reading text is slightly better, but I have to say, the jump isn't amazing. There's still a bit of sparkle/ fuzz, when reading black text on a white background, which is probably to do with the matte surface. The horizontal viewing angles aren't great either, with colours and details fading significantly at 45 degrees. I think I will save up for an IPS screen next, as I do spend a lot of time looking at computer screens.

Edit:- Though saying that, I asked an owner of BenQ EW2420 to check the black crush image and he says:

it looked fine, no blurs or colour changes near the edge.

Hmm...

 

[Kosmiche]

My 2433bw is like that, it has NEVER bothered me.

Ive owned monitors that were not reflective, and going to one that is reflective didnt bother me whatsoever.

 

[Cutshaw]

I'm still waiting on my B2430H arriving, but I did make the jump from CRT to LCD very recently.

I got a Benq V2420H for my first LCD and I was waiting on seeing trailing images and other horrendous things that I associated with LCD, but aside from needing to mess about with the colours a bit, no issues at all.

I don't know if I'm just not keen enough to pick up on it, but aside from viewing it from extreme angles, it's been a smooth transition. I've had no glare at all with this Benq either, and it's just off from a window. Something my CRT was nightmare for.

About the viewing angles, one of TN's weakest points? Where do people sit in relation to their pc for this to become an issue? I can lean as far to the left and right as my chair will let me, I can even have a crab scuttle off to a shelf and nothing apocalyptic happens to the picture.

Also I should add that although I did some reading up before I got my first LCD, price was the deciding factor in the end. I really wish I had got something with vesa mounting.

 

[crackerbear]

I got a Benq V2420H for my first LCD and I was waiting on seeing trailing images and other horrendous things that I associated with LCD, but aside from needing to mess about with the colours a bit, no issues at all.

The BenQ VW2420H uses a *VA panel compared to the TN in the V2420H so there is a fair bit of difference, despite the very similar model names. I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but I thought I'd point that out.

About the viewing angles, one of TN's weakest points? Where do people sit in relation to their pc for this to become an issue? I can lean as far to the left and right as my chair will let me, I can even have a crab scuttle off to a shelf and nothing apocalyptic happens to the picture.

That's also one thing that I've never quite understood either and hence me not putting it down as feature that I need. Yes viewing angles are important, but the colours and image quality of most modern panels (whatever type) only start to degrade when you enter the extreme angles by which point you can't really see what's on display anyway. 99% of the time you're going to be sitting square on to your monitor.

The black crush phenomena in VA panels does bring about a problem though, but that's less to do with viewing angles and more about the inherent flaw of the technology itself.

 

[PCM2]

Actually from a colour accuracy point of view TN panels are terrible. The gamma curve of the monitor is viewing angle dependent - as I have said many times, this means a given colour will appear different depending on its position on the screen (even if you are sat dead infront of the monitor). This is better explained in practice - http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/viewing_angle.php

 

[Cutshaw]

The BenQ VW2420H uses a *VA panel compared to the TN in the V2420H so there is a fair bit of difference, despite the very similar model names. I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but I thought I'd point that out.

I was just pointing out how easy it was switching from CRT, being your first LCD. It's really nothing to worry about if you've put in a wee bit groundwork.

I was considering the VW vs the P2 and B2 just this week. But the VW got knocked out early on. It's identical to V2420H as far as build and looks are concerned, while I like the look of it, it's not VESA compliant(my only real regret regards the V2) and the stand isn't mindblowing, tilt and that's it. That and not being sure about the downsides of the VA panel.

The B2 is praised by nearly everyone, including PCM2 and I fancied seeing what a non-led LCD is like. It can be mounted, which I plan on doing at some point. The P2 looks nice and all, but they are too similar to justify the extra pennies, which are in short supply.

 

[crackerbear]

The B2 is praised by nearly everyone, including PCM2 and I fancied seeing what a non-led LCD is like. It can be mounted, which I plan on doing at some point. The P2 looks nice and all, but they are too similar to justify the extra pennies, which are in short supply.

Currently I'm pretty much in the same stand point as you. Personally I think the P2450H looks better than the B2430H with the squared off bezel and orange LED. The blue power LED on the B2430H just seems too bright (and therefore distracting) for my liking, but as you say, it'll boil down to prices and currently the B2430H is cheaper and so would be the better buy.

I've messaged a few people from various places who own either the VW2420H or EW2420 about giving me a bit more detailed feedback on them and am still waiting for replies. However the Samsungs do have the edge so far, though mainly for their response times for me.