Looking for advice...

I really disagree with the stance of those saying "pay him" from many, it might be the easy route for "peace of mind" but it's not going to feel great long term as you still allowed yourself to get diddled despite knowing exactly what was going on. That wouldn't give me peace of mind personally, but I do accept that everyone is different in regards to certain things.

You're rewarding poor behaviour (to be polite) from someone that has literally attempted to extort you, and might well go on to try similar with others (and potentially already has given some of the earlier posts regarding people cutting him off).

While I don't want to be mean toward the OP, he comes across as very passive and a tad anti-conflict, that's not necessarily a bad thing but a person needs to learn to stick up for themselves and hold their ground in my opinion. You only open the door for similar to happen again down the line unfortunately, taking some mystical proverbial high ground only gets you so far in life in my experience.
 
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Gray2233 said:
I really disagree with the stance of those saying "pay him" from many, it might be the easy route for "peace of mind" but it's not going to feel great long term as you still allowed yourself to get diddled despite knowing exactly what was going on. That wouldn't give me peace of mind personally, but I do accept that everyone is different in regards to certain things.

You're rewarding poor behaviour (to be polite) from someone that has literally attempted to extort you, and might well go on to try similar with others (and potentially already has given some of the earlier posts regarding people cutting him off).

While I don't want to be mean toward the OP, he comes across as very passive and a tad anti-conflict, that's not necessarily a bad thing but a person needs to learn to stick up for themselves and hold their ground in my opinion. You only open the door for similar to happen again down the line unfortunately, taking some mystical proverbial high ground only gets you so far in life in my experience.
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Yeh, you're absolutely right. Normally I will stand my ground, fight my case and bite back.

The issue with this chap, from history and the behaviours I have witnessed, hes an emotipnal drain and loves an argument. Hes never, ever wrong and even if I had written proof from him that he would have helped me with no charge, he'd still argue the case.

I really can't be bothered with the aggro and pointless back and forth, it's draining But, when I respond, he counters with nonsense and an argument, when I ignore, he bombards me with texts and phone calls. I however refuse to pay the £120 out of principal, so its a bit of a stalemate.
 
Shep_Cobain said:
Yeh, you're absolutely right. Normally I will stand my ground, fight my case and bite back.

The issue with this chap, from history and the behaviours I have witnessed, hes an emotipnal drain and loves an argument. Hes never, ever wrong and even if I had written proof from him that he would have helped me with no charge, he'd still argue the case.

I really can't be bothered with the aggro and pointless back and forth, it's draining But, when I respond, he counters with nonsense and an argument, when I ignore, he bombards me with texts and phone calls. I however refuse to pay the £120 out of principal, so its a bit of a stalemate.
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Why are you even talking to him? He's working you over and you're submissive/passive.
 
Shep_Cobain said:
I really can't be bothered with the aggro and pointless back and forth, it's draining But, when I respond, he counters with nonsense and an argument, when I ignore, he bombards me with texts and phone calls. I however refuse to pay the £120 out of principal, so its a bit of a stalemate.
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Many moons ago, my ever aging self was in a toxic relationship with a woman who had BPD.

It was hell incarnate, but I was young and just went along with things to my own detriment. A lot of what you're describing in this thread reminds me heavily of the things I dealt with, but also the things I know others in similar situations dealt with.

The difference there being, we were getting laid. If a friendship can do this to you mate, you're having it bad and really need to cut ties and possibly look into some sort of therapy or help. I say that in the kindest way, I'm not being nasty here, it's genuinely disturbing to me from the outside looking in and you need to put yourself first and stop worrying about him.
 
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Gray2233 said:
Many moons ago, my ever aging self was in a toxic relationship with a woman who had BPD.

It was hell incarnate, but I was young and just went along with things to my own detriment. A lot of what you're describing in this thread reminds me heavily of the things I dealt with, but also the things I know others in similar situations dealt with.

The difference there being, we were getting laid. If a friendship can do this to you mate, you're having it bad and really need to cut ties and possibly look into some sort of therapy or help. I say that in the kindest way, I'm not being nasty here, it's genuinely disturbing to me from the outside looking in and you need to put yourself first and stop worrying about him.
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I think what you're describing is very different. It sounded like you went through hell, and I truly sympathise with you.

But, my situation and relationship isn't anywhere near the level yours was, and I don't want to take that away from you, neither do I want to play a victim here.
 
Brun said:
Unless I've missed something, you've given him several reasons why you *shouldn't* have to pay him but have stopped short of saying you simply won't.

He still thinks this is under discussion, and it needs ending.
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A fair point. However, my first message did say I wouldn't be paying and I hope he can be cool with that:

"Just being straight with you though - when we did it I honestly thought we were just helping each other out like we always have. We never talked about money for it and you never mentioned anything.

If you had mentioned beforehand about money, I would have not helped and gone out for the day or just done it with my dad, like I was going to originally, free of charge. I can’t pay the £120 - sorry. Hope that’s cool and we can leave it there."
 
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Yeah it's all about winding him down till he pays

Also to make him feel apologetic to it. That he deserve that money, makes my you feel guilty.

All the while he's laughing at scamming you.

Tell him where to go, FO, call the police make a incident report for harassment . He's literally stalking your family and it's a threat to you your wife your kids and your property.

The end.

Dont call him again don't say sorry or anything like that
 
Shep_Cobain said:
I think what you're describing is very different. It sounded like you went through hell, and I truly sympathise with you.

But, my situation and relationship isn't anywhere near the level yours was, and I don't want to take that away from you, neither do I want to play a victim here.
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Never try to tier abuse while placing yourself on a lower metric, my point was that you're being manipulated and taken advantage of by someone you had a lot of time and I would assume respect for.

I'm assuming everything you've told me is accurate while saying this, but you are allowing someone to manipulate you for their own gain because they view you as a soft touch. You're at the very least peripherally aware of them burning bridges elsewhere for potentially similar things. He calls you at a specific time each day, while knowing you're working. He sends your wife birthday greetings via text despite the conflict, is that something he'd normally do? I'm going out on a limb and guessing he knew about her birthday due to his own wife and yours being friends. It's tactical abuse/aggression, don't put up with it.

The best thing you can do for yourself is grow a back bone and put your foot down, it sounds harsh but you're so painfully passive it's doing you no favours. You point blank refuse to pay him back which I support and that's a grand first step, but you're not being blunt with him regarding things and are seemingly still trying to maintain a friendship with someone that does not respect you. He wants your money, if he was doing odd jobs here and there and semi-competent he wouldn't need to con his best friend into magically hiring him, not just con but pressure. You've admitted and brought all of this up yourself, the problem isn't him anymore it's you not being willing to let go and view him for what he is.

You've taken one step forward, take another and tell him to f'off, gain a modicum of self respect. You don't need to harden yourself against the world, you clearly have a healthy family and other friends, but don't sympathise or try to maintain relationships with those that not only don't reciprocate but constantly take advantage. His problems in life are not yours, frankly it sounds like you come from or at least exist in very different worlds.
 
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Gray2233 said:
Never try to tier abuse while placing yourself on a lower metric, my point was that you're being manipulated and taken advantage of by someone you had a lot of time and I would assume respect for.

I'm assuming everything you've told me is accurate while saying this, but you are allowing someone to manipulate you for their own gain because they view you as a soft touch. You're at the very least peripherally aware of them burning bridges elsewhere for potentially similar things. He calls you at a specific time each day, while knowing you're working. He sends your wife birthday greetings via text despite the conflict, is that something he'd normally do? I'm going out on a limb and guessing he knew about her birthday due to his own wife and yours being friends. It's tactical abuse/aggression, don't put up with it.

The best thing you can do for yourself is grow a back bone and put your foot down, it sounds harsh but you're so painfully passive it's doing you no favours. You point blank refuse to pay him back which I support and that's a grand first step, but you're not being blunt with him regarding things and are seemingly still trying to maintain a friendship with someone that does not respect you. He wants your money, if he was doing odd jobs here and there and semi-competent he wouldn't need to con his best friend into magically hiring him, not just con but pressure. You've admitted and brought all of this up yourself, the problem isn't him anymore it's you not being willing to let go and view him for what he is.

You've taken one step forward, take another and tell him to f'off, gain a modicum of self respect. You don't need to harden yourself against the world, you clearly have a healthy family and other friends, but don't sympathise or try to maintain relationships with those that not only don't reciprocate but constantly take advantage. His problems in life are not yours, frankly it sounds like you come from or at least exist in very different worlds.
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Wow. This was actually quite refreshing to read — and, if I’m honest, very accurate.

I’ve been truthful throughout. The last time he charged me for a job, I was already uncomfortable. I offered because I knew he was struggling financially, even though he never directly said it. He initially said he didn’t want to charge, and I assumed it might be something modest — £50 or so. I didn’t expect a £280 bill for a day’s work. I paid it to keep the peace, but I remember saying to myself I wouldn’t put myself in that position again.

This time felt different from the start. He was extremely persistent about helping, to the point he told me to cancel my father coming to do it with me. He repeatedly said he wanted to help us out. Then, without ever mentioning money to me directly, he sent a message to the plasterer saying he needed to hurry so he could get paid — and screenshot it to me. Then immediately changed rhe subject talking about christmas decorations and price of carpet.That completely blindsided me.

After that, his behaviour changed. He became oddly jealous and needy whenever I was out with other friends, repeatedly sending messages quoting things I hadn’t replied to and following them up with question marks over the space of weeks. He’s since said I was being “off” because I was avoiding him, claiming I knew he was going to charge me all along. To me, that suggests he knew exactly what he was doing and has retroactively tried to reframe it as my fault. The screenshot of a message mentioning me paying him was clearly a subtle, sneaky and underhand way of telling me he was charging me for the job, after he had helped and the fact there was no mention of it prior.

What I find hardest to reconcile is that this is someone who calls himself my best friend — I was best man at his wedding and godparent to his child. The underhand way this has been handled just doesn’t align with that at all. That’s why it’s been so unsettling. It’s not really about the money — it’s the principle, and the realisation that the dynamic may not be what I thought it was.
 
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Shep_Cobain said:
Wow. This was actually quite refreshing to read — and, if I’m honest, very accurate.

I’ve been truthful throughout. The last time he charged me for a job, I was already uncomfortable. I offered because I knew he was struggling financially, even though he never directly said it. He initially said he didn’t want to charge, and I assumed it might be something modest — £50 or so. I didn’t expect a £280 bill for a day’s work. I paid it to keep the peace, but I remember saying to myself I wouldn’t put myself in that position again.

This time felt different from the start. He was extremely persistent about helping, to the point he told me to cancel my father coming to do it with me. He repeatedly said he wanted to help us out. Then, without ever mentioning money to me directly, he sent a message to the plasterer saying he needed to hurry so he could get paid — and screenshot it to me. Then immediately changed rhe subject talking about christmas decorations and price of carpet.That completely blindsided me.

After that, his behaviour changed. He became oddly jealous and needy whenever I was out with other friends, repeatedly sending messages quoting things I hadn’t replied to and following them up with question marks over the space of weeks. He’s since said I was being “off” because I was avoiding him, claiming I knew he was going to charge me all along. To me, that suggests he knew exactly what he was doing and has retroactively tried to reframe it as my fault. The screenshot of a message mentioning me paying him was clearly a subtle, sneaky and underhand way of telling me he was charging me for the job, after he had helped and the fact there was no mention of it prior.

What I find hardest to reconcile is that this is someone who calls himself my best friend — I was best man at his wedding and godparent to his child. The underhand way this has been handled just doesn’t align with that at all. That’s why it’s been so unsettling. It’s not really about the money — it’s the principle, and the realisation that the dynamic may not be what I thought it was.
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He sounds like a textbook narcissist.

Become boring and unemotional:
  • Short, factual replies
  • No personal details
  • Calm tone, minimal engagement
And don’t pay the ****.

Use these when you want the interaction to die quietly.

  • “Noted.”
  • “Okay.”
  • “I hear you.”
  • “That’s your opinion.”
  • “We’ll have to disagree.”
  • “I don’t have anything to add.”
 
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Offer him £120 minus £70 for the spa, minus whatever you paid in food or beers etc the day he helped you out.

Remind him you’re writing off the cost of the theatre tickets and hotel his partner lumbered you with and ask him never to contact you again

Honestly this couple don’t sound like the type I’d want as friends anyway, I’d have probably let the friendship fizzle out after the two incidents you mentioned, there is nothing worth saving here
 
I think you're massively over analyzing this now.

Whatever you plan to do, it's not going to go exactly to plan.

His nose will be put out of joint.

You will feel bad about having to do it because you sound like a nice person.

You just need to get on with it now and take some action.

Don't forget to let us know the outcome!
 
Don't tell him to F.O. - being abusive to people even if they deserve it is rarely helpful.

I realise your history and relationship with this guy is entwised due to both your wives and children by the sound of it, so cutting all ties is not as easy as we are making out.

But you told him "I can not pay you.." when you probably should have said "I WILL NOT pay you".

You have to be firm, terse and polite, even when he shows up at your door, work place and child's school. :eek:
 
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