Looking for guidance on new AV setup
- Thread starter ScarySquirrel
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Does the PM6005 not have a built in DAC?
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Oh I see. I suppose I could have the Xbox One audio go directly to the amp, then it would just be the TV which would use its own DAC, which isn't really a problem.
The term "audiophile" gets used like it's something to be scared of, like it's some kind of exclusive member's only club. But the fact is that the only people who aren't audiophiles are those who just buy the first thing they can lay their hands on. If you're asking questions about kit then you definitely are an audiophile. There's no budget limits up or down. Whenever someone takes the time and trouble to choose the right audio gear for their needs they they are an audiophile.
A couple of others have said it here; going back to the beginning might be a good idea.
Breaking down your £1000 budget, about 1/3rd is going on the turntable if you are buying new. The £'s amount for a turntable is about right for something decent. But as a proportion of your total budget it doesn't make sense given that you want a system to do such a wide range of things. I think you need either a much cheaper turntable or a bigger budget.
If I were in your shoes I'd start off looking for a good used turntable.
The usual suspects are Rega Planar 3, Rega Planar 2, Rega P3, Rega P2, or a used Pro-Ject. Planar 3 are excellent. P3's are a later model version of the Planar 3. All the Planars are good solid turntables. Prices can be quite variable though. Age, condition and cartridge play a major part. Sometimes there's a bidding war on something quite old and other times a good late model TT goes for a song. Planar 3 - £150~£250.
A used AV amp would make another solid investment.
Amps such as the Onkyo 616/626 are tick box products for land grabs on market share. There's nothing wrong with that; they and their equivalents from Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony etc are decent amps in their own right. But the focus is firmly on features: 7.1 [tick] network features [tick] mobile app [tick] video upconversion [tick] ARC [tick] Audio pass-thru [tick] video cross conversion [tick] 2nd zone [tick] etc. Once you get past these models and all those boxes have been ticked then the playing field changes. It becomes increasingly about quality rather than quantity. This is where you should be heading.
The Yamaha 771 and its replacement, the 773, are good examples. These are a class higher than the price fighter models competing with Onkyo 6 series, but as a result they had audio circuits tuned for music replay rather than just AV. There's a turntable input and they also have pre-outs. At this stage that won't mean a lot. But if you get serious about your music and wanted to kick the quality up a notch then you'd be able to run external amps without changing the the AV side of things. 771's are from 2011/12. They have all the major AV amp features of today's models including app streaming. The exception would be 4K scaling/4K pass-thru which is no great problem seeing as 4K TVs will do their own scaling and we aren't exactly overrun with true 4K sources.
I've seen used 771s change hands for under £200. That's a useful boost in performance and saving off the bottom line: win, win.
The other advantage of used gear is the benefit of hindsight. You'll be able to see if there's been any issues with a product. You don't get that kind of insight with new models, especially ones that change every year. It only comes with time.
So potentially your spend has dropped from £600 down to £400, and you've improved the sonic performance and will be better off come upgrade time because your depreciation will be low.
You've now got some more budget for speakers, which is probably where you'll make the biggest impact on sonic performance.
With a system geared towards music as much as AV then, subject to the space being available, I'd seriously consider floor-standing speakers for the fronts. Ordinarily I'd say that £600 isn't enough to buy decent floor-standers (£450+/pr new) and the rest of a 5.1 system. That's still true...if you're buying new. But in the secondhand market you could bag something really decent for £200/pr and then look at your options for centre, sub and rears later on.
Bookshelf speakers on stands will take up about the same space as floor-standers but the bass will be easier to control. They're a good choice for smaller rooms.
The thing about getting really good front speakers is that they'll work well as a stopgap until you can afford a matching centre. Get them set up right and they'll produce a very convincing stereo image and a good phantom centre effect.
When short-listing fronts have a look at the rest of the range: Are there matching centres and rears. Do these come up regularly in the used market, and in matching finishes. How are the prices... etc etc. It's most important to get fronts and centre from the same brand, and preferably the same range. Rears matter a bit less. Subs; you can use anything.
The latest generation of subs from brands such as BK Electric redefine what's possible from small and relatively inexpensive boxes. BK Gemini is a great choice for smaller rooms. BK XLS200 and XXLS400 are progressively larger and go deeper and louder. The Gemini II retails for a little over £200. As subs of that performance goes it's something of a bargain. It's a very clever little sub too because if you wire it right you can have one set-up for movies and another for music. That gives you slam for your games and precision for your tunes.
A couple of others have said it here; going back to the beginning might be a good idea.
Breaking down your £1000 budget, about 1/3rd is going on the turntable if you are buying new. The £'s amount for a turntable is about right for something decent. But as a proportion of your total budget it doesn't make sense given that you want a system to do such a wide range of things. I think you need either a much cheaper turntable or a bigger budget.
If I were in your shoes I'd start off looking for a good used turntable.
The usual suspects are Rega Planar 3, Rega Planar 2, Rega P3, Rega P2, or a used Pro-Ject. Planar 3 are excellent. P3's are a later model version of the Planar 3. All the Planars are good solid turntables. Prices can be quite variable though. Age, condition and cartridge play a major part. Sometimes there's a bidding war on something quite old and other times a good late model TT goes for a song. Planar 3 - £150~£250.
A used AV amp would make another solid investment.
Amps such as the Onkyo 616/626 are tick box products for land grabs on market share. There's nothing wrong with that; they and their equivalents from Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony etc are decent amps in their own right. But the focus is firmly on features: 7.1 [tick] network features [tick] mobile app [tick] video upconversion [tick] ARC [tick] Audio pass-thru [tick] video cross conversion [tick] 2nd zone [tick] etc. Once you get past these models and all those boxes have been ticked then the playing field changes. It becomes increasingly about quality rather than quantity. This is where you should be heading.
The Yamaha 771 and its replacement, the 773, are good examples. These are a class higher than the price fighter models competing with Onkyo 6 series, but as a result they had audio circuits tuned for music replay rather than just AV. There's a turntable input and they also have pre-outs. At this stage that won't mean a lot. But if you get serious about your music and wanted to kick the quality up a notch then you'd be able to run external amps without changing the the AV side of things. 771's are from 2011/12. They have all the major AV amp features of today's models including app streaming. The exception would be 4K scaling/4K pass-thru which is no great problem seeing as 4K TVs will do their own scaling and we aren't exactly overrun with true 4K sources.
I've seen used 771s change hands for under £200. That's a useful boost in performance and saving off the bottom line: win, win.
The other advantage of used gear is the benefit of hindsight. You'll be able to see if there's been any issues with a product. You don't get that kind of insight with new models, especially ones that change every year. It only comes with time.
So potentially your spend has dropped from £600 down to £400, and you've improved the sonic performance and will be better off come upgrade time because your depreciation will be low.
You've now got some more budget for speakers, which is probably where you'll make the biggest impact on sonic performance.
With a system geared towards music as much as AV then, subject to the space being available, I'd seriously consider floor-standing speakers for the fronts. Ordinarily I'd say that £600 isn't enough to buy decent floor-standers (£450+/pr new) and the rest of a 5.1 system. That's still true...if you're buying new. But in the secondhand market you could bag something really decent for £200/pr and then look at your options for centre, sub and rears later on.
Bookshelf speakers on stands will take up about the same space as floor-standers but the bass will be easier to control. They're a good choice for smaller rooms.
The thing about getting really good front speakers is that they'll work well as a stopgap until you can afford a matching centre. Get them set up right and they'll produce a very convincing stereo image and a good phantom centre effect.
When short-listing fronts have a look at the rest of the range: Are there matching centres and rears. Do these come up regularly in the used market, and in matching finishes. How are the prices... etc etc. It's most important to get fronts and centre from the same brand, and preferably the same range. Rears matter a bit less. Subs; you can use anything.
The latest generation of subs from brands such as BK Electric redefine what's possible from small and relatively inexpensive boxes. BK Gemini is a great choice for smaller rooms. BK XLS200 and XXLS400 are progressively larger and go deeper and louder. The Gemini II retails for a little over £200. As subs of that performance goes it's something of a bargain. It's a very clever little sub too because if you wire it right you can have one set-up for movies and another for music. That gives you slam for your games and precision for your tunes.
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Wow that's a really informative post, thanks for taking the time to post.
Good point about the term "audiophile", I guess you're right, the fact I'm asking and researching means I am. I suppose what I was trying to get at is that I'm an uneducated audiophile
My only concern about going for an older turntable is that my knowledge of them (at least for now) is so low, that I'd be worry I'd get something which needs fixing up or is beyond fixing up. How will I know what to look out for?
Good point about the term "audiophile", I guess you're right, the fact I'm asking and researching means I am. I suppose what I was trying to get at is that I'm an uneducated audiophile
My only concern about going for an older turntable is that my knowledge of them (at least for now) is so low, that I'd be worry I'd get something which needs fixing up or is beyond fixing up. How will I know what to look out for?
Soldato
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Are you setting up mainly for music?
I have a turntable in my AV system, recently I changed how everything is connected , before I had a dedicated stereo amp (Marantz PM6004) with a pair of Monitor Audio RS1 silvers, but I just was not using the turntable and amp enough.
So as I had a ps4 and bluray player connected to my Onkyo 2.1 surround system , I decided to get an AVR reciever that can control the lot.
Sold the Marantz, Onkyo and rs1 speakers and bought a denon X2000 avr and 2000i speaker set in a 2.1 configuration.
This meets my needs as now I only have one control source and I can still play the odd vinyl and ipod tunes through the avr x2000.
I have a turntable in my AV system, recently I changed how everything is connected , before I had a dedicated stereo amp (Marantz PM6004) with a pair of Monitor Audio RS1 silvers, but I just was not using the turntable and amp enough.
So as I had a ps4 and bluray player connected to my Onkyo 2.1 surround system , I decided to get an AVR reciever that can control the lot.
Sold the Marantz, Onkyo and rs1 speakers and bought a denon X2000 avr and 2000i speaker set in a 2.1 configuration.
This meets my needs as now I only have one control source and I can still play the odd vinyl and ipod tunes through the avr x2000.
That's a valid point.
I think you can save yourself a lot of grief if you buy from the right type of person. There are specialist Hi-Fi forum sites such as PinkFish and Hi-Fiwigwam. They have classified sections for selling on gear as people upgrade. You're more likely to find a well looked after TT from an enthusiast site rather than taking pot luck with Ebay.
It's also worth bearing in mind that solid plinth turntables such as Pro-Jects and Regas are an extremely simple design. There's no complex suspension to set up or maintain. It's basically an MDF plinth with a bearing for the platter spindle, a motor, a power switch and the tonearm. If you're looking at a TT that seems to have had a hard life then walk away. But something where it looks fresh, there's a box and a manual is generally going to be a safer bet.
The one area that is trickier to assess is the cartridge. Unless you have a microscope and know what you're looking for then the best way to tell about the wear is to listen. A worn stylus will show up as excessive sibilance in loud vocal passages. There's good info on the topic here: http://www.audioinvest.no/tt_vinyl/ttv_styl.htm
I guess in the end it's about weighing up the pros and cons. With a new TT you get a warranty, you're the first owner, the cartridge is new but basic. That last bit is important.
Cartridge quality varies with price and design. TT manufacturers buy in volume but you're still only looking at a very basic cartridge being supplied with an entry-level turntable. Once the novelty of owning a TT has worn off then the cartridge is usually the first target for an upgrade.
I remember my first couple of cartridge upgrades back in the mid 80's. The TT came with a budget Linn cartridge - a K5 - You can still buy the Audio Technica version (AT95e) today for under £30. Changing to an A&R C77 was a revelation. More bass weight, clearer midrange, sweeter top end. The next upgrade was to the A&R P77. Wow! Just more of everything and better all round. At that point I'd spent almost as much on the cartridge as the TT cost, but it was worth every penny.
I've had a few different TTs and cartridges since. My current cartridge will cost around £450 to replace with new.
The thing with a good used TT is that you'll often get a cartridge at way above the performance level you could afford if buying new. So that £150~£200 used TT might come with £100~£200 worth of cartridge if bought new. As long as it's in good shape then its the bargain of a century.
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Music is my main concern, yes.
Interesting, how's the difference in sound between using the Marantz and the Denon AVR? That's my main concern right now, if I get an AVR, it seems like I really need to pick the right one to ensure I'm not sacrificing music quality.
Lucid has already recommended the Yamaha 771 and 773 as decent receivers that also are good for music, any other recommendations?
Interesting, how's the difference in sound between using the Marantz and the Denon AVR? That's my main concern right now, if I get an AVR, it seems like I really need to pick the right one to ensure I'm not sacrificing music quality.
Lucid has already recommended the Yamaha 771 and 773 as decent receivers that also are good for music, any other recommendations?
Denon and Marantz come from the same company, but the products are tilted in different directions. They're both AV receivers, first and foremost. But the Marantz trades a little movie prowess for musical finesse. Each time I've heard the Marantz receivers do music they're closer to the sound of a reasonable stereo amp. There's a bit more insight in to the music and it feels like the amp has a better grip of what's going on.
A lot of this is subjective though and it also depends on the partnering equipment.
A lot of this is subjective though and it also depends on the partnering equipment.
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I think I need to go and demo some options at my local Richer Sounds. Thanks for all the help everyone.
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The emperor has no clothes...
There is very little difference between amps... most of it is just differences in how they've been set up or just imagined/perceived differences. You don't need to buy a separate amp for playing music etc... modern amps have minimal distortion and an AV amp is quite capable of driving most speakers. People spouting nonsense about 'musicality' etc... have just bought into the usual marketing/audiophile nonsense.
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That's an interesting perspective. At the moment I'm set on the Project Carbon TT, and 95% set on the Dali Zensor 3, I listened to some in a shop today and they looked and sounded pretty good.
What I'm stuck on is:
- Denon AVR-X2000, £250, looks great, good features, great reviews, but means I'll need a phono stage which would be around £85-100 for something like the Cambridge Audio Azur 640 (or even cheaper second hand) - benefit to this is that I could expand to surround sound later, but right now I don't know if I even want to bother with this
- Marantz PM6005 - £250-260, does what I need now, and hopefully I can connect my Xbox One/TV via audio optical out.
What I'm stuck on is:
- Denon AVR-X2000, £250, looks great, good features, great reviews, but means I'll need a phono stage which would be around £85-100 for something like the Cambridge Audio Azur 640 (or even cheaper second hand) - benefit to this is that I could expand to surround sound later, but right now I don't know if I even want to bother with this
- Marantz PM6005 - £250-260, does what I need now, and hopefully I can connect my Xbox One/TV via audio optical out.
Good luck with that one I went in on saturday and was unimpressed with service, which had always been excellent, maidstone was superb though
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That's a shame. The guy who served us was really nice and patient with us. Trouble is, I felt that whenever I mentioned a product he just agreed that it was a great product, now that may be right, but I couldn't help but feel that he would just say everything is great so that I'd buy it. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic!
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Oh how the scales have fallen from my eyes. Thank goodness there's absolutely no different between a switch-mode power supply based amp and one with a big toroidal transformer and massive capacitors. I'm so glad that the cheapest capacitors are just the same as those expensive ones. And I'm so relieved that it doesn't matter how much digital processing noise is happening inside the amp because it makes absolutely no difference to the sound because the only important criteria is the distortion figure.... that's what you said, isn't it?
Okay, I'm off for some dinner now at the local 2 for £10 pub. I'm sure that their steak is just as good as that 21 day matured Aberdeen Angus, right?
Malcolm is the best in there from my experience, even remembered me by name about 8 months after my last visit
The guy i saw this time was making every excuse not to demo what i was interested in, plus they didn't have speaker i wanted to buy either
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I've changed my mind again, I don't need/want 5.1 for the foreseeable future, so I'm going for a stereo amp.
The Marantz PM6005 is in my price range, it gets good reviews, and seems like a good bet for my needs, unless anyone has any other recommendations.
The speakers, well I'm still keen on the Dali Zensor 3, but I'm also tracking some second hand B&W CM1s which brand new are twice the price, so if I could get them at a decent price I'd be happy. Would they perform better than the Dalis?
Any other recommendations for standmount speakers in the £300-500 range (new or used, happy to get more bang for buck if I buy second hand)?
The Marantz PM6005 is in my price range, it gets good reviews, and seems like a good bet for my needs, unless anyone has any other recommendations.
The speakers, well I'm still keen on the Dali Zensor 3, but I'm also tracking some second hand B&W CM1s which brand new are twice the price, so if I could get them at a decent price I'd be happy. Would they perform better than the Dalis?
Any other recommendations for standmount speakers in the £300-500 range (new or used, happy to get more bang for buck if I buy second hand)?
The same salesperson will likely also happily smile and advise you on a overpriced HDMI cable and/or let you buy some ridiculously expensive interconnects or expensive speaker cable none of which will actually make a difference...
The whole industry is full of snake oil, industry magazines will happily review HDMI cables and claim they can see differences in contrast, colour etc.. (from a cable which just sends a digital signal from a to b)... sales chumps shops will happily recommend these either because they're too stupid to know any better and have simply bought into the BS themselves or they're just happy to rip you off - either way I don't see how you can realistically trust 'advice' given to you by people working in a shop that will quite happily sell such dubious products to people.
Test it out - say you're interested in buying a new HDMI cable some interconnects etc.. take an interest in the expensive ones, see what he recommends - does he tell you that actually the cheapest HDMI cable they sell will do the same job or is he happy to just flog you the overpriced one - can you then trust anything else that comes out of his mouth.
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