Lotus Racing to become Caterham?

alchemistkevin said:
Team Lotus Ventures was licensed to use the mark by Group Lotus which was later revoked, hence the court case.
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Eh?

Team Lotus Ventures was set up by Hunt when he bought Team Lotus
Team Lotus Ventures has all rights to the Team Lotus name in F1 including the Team Lotus logo.

This was laid down in 1985 iirc in a document laying out the seperation between Group and Team.

Lotus Racing was a licensed name used by 1MRT in 2010. Team Lotus has never been owned by Group Lotus and as such they couldn't issue a license for it *although they did try over the years*
 
Skeeter said:
Team Lotus have every right to use the Team Lotus name, Group Lotus have no rights to it at all. Its as simple as that.
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Don't talk rot.

Team Lotus was created as an offshoot of Lotus Cars (then Lotus Engineering). Group Lotus exist as an offshoot of Lotus Cars. So one's more valid than the other, because it was created first? Even though it was no longer being used?

My point wasn't that Fernandes has no right to use the Lotus name, it was that he has no more right than Group Lotus. I'm sorry, but a lot of sentiment for the fact that Team Lotus seem like nice guys seems to be clouding everyone's views as to who deserves to use it.

Frankly, it makes more sense to me if Team Lotus were called Caterham, as that's a company they actually own, and two companies with the similar names is just silly. It has nothing to do with who has an actual connection to the original Lotus name.
 
Weebull said:
Don't talk rot.

Team Lotus was created as an offshoot of Lotus Cars (then Lotus Engineering). Group Lotus exist as an offshoot of Lotus Cars. So one's more valid than the other, because it was created first? Even though it was no longer being used?

My point wasn't that Fernandes has no right to use the Lotus name, it was that he has no more right than Group Lotus. I'm sorry, but a lot of sentiment for the fact that Team Lotus seem like nice guys seems to be clouding everyone's views as to who deserves to use it.

Frankly, it makes more sense to me if Team Lotus were called Caterham, as that's a company they actually own, and two companies with the similar names is just silly. It has nothing to do with who has an actual connection to the original Lotus name.
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Uh... what?

There is no issue of 'deserving', or having a 'connection to the original', its simply a case of name ownership. Fernandes owns the name Team Lotus, so can use it. Group Lotus do not own the name Team Lotus, so cannot use it.

Its as simple as that.

The only difference between Team Lotus and teams like Ferrari, Sauber, and McLaren is that while their ownership was changing hands they were still on the F1 grid.

Mclaren went Bruce>Ron>Damiler/TAG/Bahrain/Ron.
Ferrari went Alpha Romeo>Enzo Ferrari>Fiat.
Sauber went Peter>BMW>Peter.
Team Lotus went Chapman>Chapman Family>Peter Colin/Peter Wright>David Hunt>Fernandes.

The only difference is the Hunt>Fernandes ownership change happened while the team were not competing, yet somehow this means they are not the 'real' Team Lotus? They are as 'real' as McLaren, Ferrari and Sauber (05-09).

Put it this way, if David Hunt had run an F1 team from 1995 to 2010 called Team Lotus, and then sold the team to Fernandes, would we still be having this conversation? No, of course not.

What seems to be clouding your is judgement somehow thinking a gap with no 'physical' team completely nullifies any connections to the past?
 
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Now it's my turn to say "what?"

At what point did I say "deserves to use the Team Lotus name"??

I said both have fairly equal rights to the Lotus name. Just because one was the name used by a previous F1 company, doesn't make it a more valid Lotus brand. Personally, if you're a team with a connection to a road car manufacturer, I'd say the team with the explicit blessing of said road car company is probably slightly more worthy of the name.

If Renault decided they wanted to get back into F1 next season, and they had to create a whole new team to do so, are you saying that they couldn't call themselves Renault F1, because Genii-Lotus-Renault-McDonalds-KitchenSink-Cosworth technically have the original name?
 
Ok, you clearly don't understand this.

Tony Fernandes owns the name 'Team Lotus'. Thats as a whole. The brand Team Lotus has no association with the brand Lotus. They are legally different owned by different companies.

Fernandes has NO rights to use the name Lotus on its own, as was detailed from the court case. That is a trademark of Group Lotus. Fernandes cannot use the name Lotus on its own any more than he could use Ferrari, or Intel, or any other companies trademark.

'Team Lotus' and 'Lotus' are 2 seperate things.

Fernandes has all the rights to 'Team Lotus', Group Lotus have none.
Group Lotus has all the rights to the name 'Lotus', Fernandes has none.

You are mistakenly thinking that because Team Lotus includes the word Lotus, it somehow uses the Group Lotus owned trademark of 'Lotus' on its own. They are as legally disconnected as the name Ferrari is from the name McLaren.

For example: Apple Inc, Apple Corp and Apple Bank. 3 totally seperate organisations all sharing the same name. Only Apple Inc has the right to use 'Apple' as a word on its own as a trademark. The others must use other names.
 
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http://www.itv.com/formula1/news/2011/10/renault-and-lotus-name-changes-set-for-green-light-4987/

Looks like its all going to happen.

Crucially, Renault will become 'Lotus', not 'Team Lotus', as Fernandes holds the rights to that name. The newly formed Lotus team will have zero claim to the Team Lotus history. The moment anyone starts saying they do I will be throwing my remote at the TV.

And I expect Team Lotus to become Air Asia Caterham, or some other combination, as that is what Fernandes' other teams run as.

Look slike Dany Bahr has got his way after all. Shame its all going to be in vain when Lotus Cars goes under.
 
It doesn't make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things, but it seems sensible. It's a bit of shame the way it came about though you'd of thought they could have sorted something out a little better then they did.

Maybe get some nice new paint jobs! :)
 
We still don't know the full story. Something happened that changed Lotus Cars view. In 2010 Lotus Racing entered F1 with the full support and blessing of Lotus Cars and the Chapman family. In 2011, after changing from Lotus Racing to Team Lotus suddenly Fernandes and his team are enemy number 1 for Lotus Cars and hated by the Champan family :confused:

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that Dany Bahr wanted to buy into Fernandes' team, and was turned down, so decided to go elsewhere and drive Fernandes out another way.
 
Genii-Lotus-Renault are running two mediocre pay drivers and averaging just one point per race recently (less than Toro Rosso and Force India). Meanwhile Kovalainen beat both Saubers in Korea (and Trulli isn't that far off his pace). Things are definitely looking better for Team Lotus\Caterham at the moment.
 
There finances are looking much better too. Caterham have some solid backers on board and rumour has it will be the 5th highest funded team on the grid next year, while other rumours suggest Renault LOLtus are so broke they might not be able to afford their Renault engine supply next year.

Plus, Fernandes is a very likeable chap :)
 
Skeeter said:
Plus, Fernandes is a very likeable chap :)
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He is a legend. He spoke to the group of us standing outside the hotel in Silverstone that quite a few of the drivers and staff stay at. After spending a while signing stuff and chatting, someone shouted 'Going to win tomorrow, Tony?' - his reply was along the lines of 'No ******* chance lol' haha.
 
JRS said:
Well, what would be the point in Tony hanging onto the Team Lotus name?
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I would have like to think that after all the court battles & mud slinging he would have at least kept hold of it and licensed it to Group Lotus. I can only imagine a big chunk of money has changed hands between parties. It does beg the question just what the hell was the point in it all? Why fight for the name then decide actually I don't think we really are Team Lotus.
 
The 'fight' only happened because Bahar figured he could bully his way into owning the name without paying for it. Since all that ruckus started, Tony bought Caterham and now has a name that he can build a legacy from. Whereas Genii-LOLtus-Renault are now going to be consumed by pointing back at all those great Team Lotus days and jumping up and down shouting 'that's us you know!' all the while sliding backwards down the grid ;)
 
JRS said:
The 'fight' only happened because Bahar figured he could bully his way into owning the name without paying for it. Since all that ruckus started, Tony bought Caterham and now has a name that he can build a legacy from. Whereas Genii-LOLtus-Renault are now going to be consumed by pointing back at all those great Team Lotus days and jumping up and down shouting 'that's us you know!' all the while sliding backwards down the grid ;)
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A sad way for Team Lotus to go though. Team Lotus had a promising future ahead of them under Tony & Co. The only way really does seem to be up if talk of budgets etc for next year and beyond are to be believed. Out of all the new teams they are the only ones making progress. LOLtus though are on nothing but a downward spiral & for a Nawfik boy it's going to be awful watching Lotus and now Team Lotus crash and burn.
 
Well at least it keeps things clean and tidy. When Bahar bankrupts Group Lotus he will take all traces of Colin Chapmans legacy with him. No point in doing a half arsed job of destroying something great.

The icing on the cake for me would be to see Caterham beat Lotus next year.
 
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