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Low end isn't improving...

Is low end them £30 cards? I thought they were just to watch videos or something?

What card is inside the PS3 again? the gtx 260?

£100 is my interpretation of a low-end gaming card. Anything below £100 is media centre stuff, and APUs might well kill that market entirely anyway.

£150 - £200 is mid range (200 being upper mid range)
£250 is high-end
and
£300 and above is enthusiast high end

Above £400 - enough for 2x mid range cards - you really have to call that the exception rather than the rule. This forum might be skewed to one end of the spectrum, but that doesn't make such setups "normal".
 
This was my point, the need to use atleast a 660Ti, also SSDs the load times on consoles are SLOWWWWW!

The PC game industry is dieing too much pirating and all ports from crappy consoles with 7800gts? wtf?
 
PS4 isn't coming till 2014. Nobody knows the specs.

I wouldn't give any of the current rumours a milliseconds worth of time.
 
Doubt the PS4 would use that, surely they'll be using close to cutting edge graphics at the time, having said that we'll be stuck most likely running 1080P games ? so how much power do they really need a 7970 could do the job for the next console ?
 
Yeah i know what you mean, even the 480 still maxs most games. Only reason for more cards is bigger screens and more of them.

Pretty much my experience, I could still slap my old 460 in this tower and max most games available at 1920x1080. I wouldn't trade the 3570k for anything though, amazing chip and apps are already way ahead of it, wish i could say the same for games and the current new GPU's as i now regret going from the 460 to 7850 then 670.


Shame, hopefully rumour is all that is. XBOX360 and PS3 were disappointing from the point of view of someone who went console > PC > tried console again when both released and and quickly ran back > PC, i'd say most people are in that kinda boat over various ages here.
 
NZB how did the 7850 perform? Ive just ordered an OC model on special, im going from a 285 so it was needed as no DX 11 but a 460 ? was there any need? Apart from Vram?

I dunno what ill pick in my new rig next year the i5k of 2013 or the i7k of 2013 i know you dont see much difference in gaming if any but i just like the 7 for some reason lol.
 
PS4 isn't coming till 2014. Nobody knows the specs.

I wouldn't give any of the current rumours a milliseconds worth of time.

You're boring.

I very much doubt it'll be anything much higher than a 6670 anyway. Otherwise the cost of the unit starts spiralling out of control.


Why are you +1'ing. You're discussing my rumour with more rumours just a few posts up! :D

I see no problem discussing rumours as long as they're sourced and semi believable.

Personally I think it'll be a 6850/70 type chip. That fits the mould of being cheap and offering decent performance.
 
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NZB how did the 7850 perform? Ive just ordered an OC model on special, im going from a 285 so it was needed as no DX 11 but a 460 ? was there any need? Apart from Vram?

I dunno what ill pick in my new rig next year the i5k of 2013 or the i7k of 2013 i know you dont see much difference in gaming if any but i just like the 7 for some reason lol.

It performed better than i needed tbh. When i switched from it to the 670 i was going through a phase of installing some games i hadn't played in a wee while like Battlefield 3 and Metro 2033 that are particularly intensive and got the upgrade bug at the same time. The 670 gave a perceived needed boost. Those two games were uninstalled again 2 weeks later and the difference between anything else is silly ie getting 80fps or 100 hence the regret.

The 460 to 7850 was a decent upgrade though, it removed the occasional obvious slowdown in some games.

A CPU next year? God knows, next round i'll probably not upgrade the GPU (might even downgrade back to the 7850) as the PC is more used for apps that can make use of more cores these days than gaming but i'll likely jump on anything significant over Ivy as any times off encoding will be welcome.
 
Cool i think the 285 was more of a beast then the 460 but it has no DX11 so its a really stupid card seeing how ATI were had dx11 cards at its release :\

It has done its job i suppose but the 7850 will bring me what i want if 20 fps down and still above 60 that is great, but why would you downgrade? What do you do with your old cards? Wont you lose even more money?
 
Nah i still have the 7850. If something good CPU wise comes out i'd give the 670 to my son and upgrade, he'll be wanting something new this time next year so 2 birds and all that... unless games take a jump and need it, then the wallet will have to come out.
 
Nah i still have the 7850. If something good CPU wise comes out i'd give the 670 to my son and upgrade, he'll be wanting something new this time next year so 2 birds and all that... unless games take a jump and need it, then the wallet will have to come out.

Lol im dreading it when my son grows up, its seems like buy them a console is the best bet :) PCs are too cash hungry but id never give it up, its kinda like cars they cost a fortune but id never use the bus EVER!!!
 
As far as I can see from Anandtech a 7770 is faster than a 5770, the former costs £90ish, the later used to cost £125, more performance, less money, not exactly terrible is it?

Either way, the low end will always suck, that is the point of the low end basically. There is only so much you can cut down a gpu, if DX11 functionality takes up 200million transistors, on a 7970 with 3000million transistors that is a fairly small amount, on a 600million transistor low end gpu, you're talking about a 1/3rd of the die being for functionality and essentially increasing the die cost by 50% for that one thing. Those aren't remotely close to exact figures, but there is a lot of stuff that just has to be there, big or small gpu, for this reason the largest part of the die difference between a low end and high end gpu is the performance parts of the core, you can bump the core size by 200%, but increase performance by 400% because the shaders/bus/rops are increasing by much more than 200%.

Low end isn't very good, though in comparison APU performance is offering vastly improved value.


As for those rumoured PS4 specs, PS4 with Llano, not a chance in hell, its more likely to be a steamroller based core with some tweaks than a Llano, but a Piledriver based Trinity might be the most likely.

It's hard to say for sure because of time line, Xbox is supposed to launch next year(though sounds like its pushing it) PS4 is supposed to be 2014... but how much later, is it likely to have a different CPU or will they both be identical, hard to know. While it takes a lot of resources at an ever dwindling AMD engineering workforce, they have and can make several different version of the same chip.

It's also very hard to know based on how long ahead they have chips ready vs when they can be finalised and made. Supposedly the Xbox 360 chip is in production already, which makes Steamroller very unlikely and trinity very very likely. if the PS4 chip only went in to production 6 months/year from now, then the extra time might mean they fit a steamroller core in there... much higher single thread performance, better overall performance. Well tweaked code and well designed games that use the cores available won't be particularly limited in gaming though anyway.
 
What DM says about the 7770 being faster/cheaper than the 5770 is quite true, so if these chips are truly the low end then yes they are improving.

In my opinion these are not really low end chips, in fact this generation AMD hasn't released anything that I would consider low end. I know that lots of people have said that the APU will kill off the low end market but I'm quite surprised that it seems to have happened already as far as AMD are concerned.

One thing I am interested to know from the opening poster is why he thinks this is all Nvidia fault, surely both AMD and Nvidia must be to blame for the really low end chips being in the same performance bracket generation after generation. Or is it because AMD hasn't released any this time around so it is automatically Nvidia's fault.
 
IMO if you are at the low end of the scale you are far better off looking for older generation cards second hand. A second hand 6850 or equivalent would be a good upgrade for you.

Also worth keeping an eye out for old stock being discounted, sometimes you can get EOL midrange cards on the cheap when a new range comes out (although it tends to be mid-high end cards more often - the GTX400 series in particular).
 
Doubt the PS4 would use that, surely they'll be using close to cutting edge graphics at the time, having said that we'll be stuck most likely running 1080P games ? so how much power do they really need a 7970 could do the job for the next console ?

A 7850 would more than do it. I somehow doubt that the next generation of consoles are going to suddenly have top end chips in them. They have to be affordable. If I recall correctly, the PS3 was £430 - £460 on release.
 
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£100 can't be low end as the 6870 is surely a mid-range card.

I'd say the low end lies in between APU performance and the 6870.

I know people who would spend £70 on a graphics card and think they were getting a powerful card. Though in my experience budget gamers buy old gen cards rather than the lowest end of the new gen.
 
£100 can't be low end as the 6870 is surely a mid-range card.

I'd say the low end lies in between APU performance and the 6870.

Dont forget the 6870 was near enough a 5870 so I wouldn't classify anything near a 6870's level of performance low end yet, but that level of performance should be available for £100 by now but dissapointingly it isn't. The £100 price point I'd consider to be getting near the lower bound of mid range.




In regard to the 5770/7700 comparison, while it is true at a naming level, the 7770 occupies the £100-120 region and falls well short of a 6870. A year ago 6870's, (which are approx 25% faster than the 7770 with game dependent +/-) were selling for ~£130.
More relevantly I think, a year back 6850's were £80-90 and they on average just edge out the 7770, although perhaps are now at parity with the new driver release. That's still £20 more for the same level of performance a year on.
 
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