'low profile' speaker suggestions

Extortionate “reference” branded speakers are a mugs game. All this talk of them “measuring well” just shows that you can’t tell a noticeable difference without doing so, and it’s simply to self validate the colossal waste of money that these companies are tricking people into.

Anyone with broad use of speakers, whose used warm to bright will be able to pick out why a speakerpreference..

I'm sure if I was listening to dozens of speakers every week I'd be able to make conclusions on bass, mid, HF on brands, ranges etc. Are you saying all speakers measure the same, and it doesn't make any difference?

EQ certainly helps subwoofers
 
Nonsense. Were that the case; we’d all be running Bose or similar.

We measure for the same reason that we might measure displays or benchmark a GPU; in order to get away from the abject snake-oil put-out by the likes of What Hi-Fi, etc. As for a waste of money: Not at all, it’s often the case that cheaper products perform far better than expensive ones. I’d never buy anything from the Bowers & Wilkins 800 series for instance; not when a mid-price Kef or Arendal will eat its lunch.

Would be interesting to listen to a "perfect measurement" speaker, and see whether you like them or not, or if prefer some kind of house sound

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120-ii-monitor-review.46362/

or using world class EQ to flatten response on all my 9.3.4 speakers.
 
Anyone with broad use of speakers, whose used warm to bright will be able to pick out why a speakerpreference..

I'm sure if I was listening to dozens of speakers every week I'd be able to make conclusions on bass, mid, HF on brands, ranges etc. Are you saying all speakers measure the same, and it doesn't make any difference?

EQ certainly helps subwoofers
It’s hardly worth listening to people who insist that there are no differences between speakers. It’s likely that most of them are people who buy an overpriced, sub-par product, get buyers remorse and claim it’s “jUsT aS gOoD”.

Would be interesting to listen to a "perfect measurement" speaker, and see whether you like them or not, or if prefer some kind of house sound

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120-ii-monitor-review.46362/

or using world class EQ to flatten response on all my 9.3.4 speakers.
Depends on the source. If you’re listening to ***** material with a non EQ capable source; a house sound might sound better. This is generally where the hi-fi people sit; who argue about the esoterics of “warmth” and “bright” etc.

For cinema: We tend to just like something that can EQ well, to get us close to the source, blend well with the subs, etc. Movie soundtracks are (generally) recorded quite well, so we don’t need a house sound to flatter them. Just something that responds well to EQ and works well in-room. Sadly, a lot of speakers -even expensive ones- don’t.

My standard recommendation for movies is Arendal 1723 monitors. They’re very neutral. Very well-designed. Relatively cheap (as they distribute directly). But they’re obviously quite large.

Kef’s new upper-range speakers if you want to spend a bit more. Perlisten if you want to spend a bit more still.

For more discrete in-room installs; I like M&K (Perlisten also does in-walls; but they’re super expensive).

These are probably as neutral as it comes (without going down the Genelec/Studio monitor route).

Haven’t heard the XTZ cinema line or Ken Kreisel’s new stuff; but these are along the same lines.
 
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Wow !!!!!!!! What "world class EQ" are you using ? Maybe post up some pics of this world class EQ'd 9.3.4 system.............................then we can ALL look in wonder at it.

Not using room EQ for the speakers. Just the sub. The room EQ is full manual, you have to use rew and plot response manually then enter manually. Bit of a chore so I only EQ the subs
 
It’s hardly worth listening to people who insist that there are no differences between speakers. It’s likely that most of them are people who buy an overpriced, sub-par product, get buyers remorse and claim it’s “jUsT aS gOoD”.


Depends on the source. If you’re listening to ***** material with a non EQ capable source; a house sound might sound better. This is generally where the hi-fi people sit; who argue about the esoterics of “warmth” and “bright” etc.

For cinema: We tend to just like something that can EQ well, to get us close to the source, blend well with the subs, etc. Movie soundtracks are (generally) recorded quite well, so we don’t need a house sound to flatter them. Just something that responds well to EQ and works well in-room. Sadly, a lot of speakers -even expensive ones- don’t.

My standard recommendation for movies is Arendal 1723 monitors. They’re very neutral. Very well-designed. Relatively cheap (as they distribute directly). But they’re obviously quite large.

Kef’s new upper-range speakers if you want to spend a bit more. Perlisten if you want to spend a bit more still.

For more discrete in-room installs; I like M&K (Perlisten also does in-walls; but they’re super expensive).

These are probably as neutral as it comes (without going down the Genelec/Studio monitor route).

Haven’t heard the XTZ cinema line or Ken Kreisel’s new stuff; but these are along the same lines.

On wall isn't my thing although do understand pros and cons of them. Usually limitations on weight size and capabilities, used with a sub so won't be floorstanders etc. Maybe front wide and surrounds, projector. High end AV processors are too expensive £6000+

I don't need to upgrade reached limits kinda disappointing as that's part of the hobby. My mains are similar quality (possibly better), and size to the arendel 1723 full tower
 
It’s hardly worth listening to people who insist that there are no differences between speakers. It’s likely that most of them are people who buy an overpriced, sub-par product, get buyers remorse and claim it’s “jUsT aS gOoD”.

In most cases once you reach a certain level of speaker quality, the difference isn't that great between speakers. Audiophiles like to convince themselves otherwise in order to justify the expenditure but it is all really a big waste of money after a certain point. Unless you have the perfect room you are all just kidding yourselves that this high end gear is worth while.

People spending a lot of money on headphones I understand as you don't need to combat bad room acoustics but speakers are really just snake oil after a certain level.

I figured this out years ago after "upgrading" numerous times to something supposedly better, whether it is an amp or new speakers. Marginal improvements, if you can even really notice any difference at all. That is why I am perfectly happy with the KEF T's as they sound perfectly good and I know that nothing I have ever heard speaker wise was such a huge leap in quality that it was worth spending more on. They also fit in better with a normal living room space than huge floorstanders or kid unfriendly standmount / book shelf speakers.
 
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Have you really just suggested that your manually applied room correction is “world class”?

No. I mean I would like world class room correction. Too costly. Did consider Anthem but could only afford their older AV processor and that didn't offer multiple sub out, front wide etc. AVM70/90 is way too much.

Unfortuantly I just have basic room correction, tbh I tried it but doesn't make much difference, or at least that I can notice. I have a couple of areas in 100-300hz that need sorting, didn't feel I could notice it when I did use the PEQ channels. So just used the subwoofer PEQ and that made a lot of difference.
 
I'm surprised that you're suffering from bass issues at 100-300hz. They tend to be more noticeable at lower bass levels, though they could be harmonics. I have a massive +12db peak at 38hz in my room, with a secondary at 76hz with +6db.
I wasn't that impressed with the last automated room correction I heard, but that was a few years ago. I assume that DIRAC and similar are a lot better now. Dunno really. I did the same as you, i.e. measure a frequency sweep, manually modify and iterate until I was happy. The impression I've got from reading is that doing as little as possible is a good thing, as you've less chance of buggering up the musical data.
 
I'm surprised that you're suffering from bass issues at 100-300hz. They tend to be more noticeable at lower bass levels, though they could be harmonics. I have a massive +12db peak at 38hz in my room, with a secondary at 76hz with +6db.
I wasn't that impressed with the last automated room correction I heard, but that was a few years ago. I assume that DIRAC and similar are a lot better now. Dunno really. I did the same as you, i.e. measure a frequency sweep, manually modify and iterate until I was happy. The impression I've got from reading is that doing as little as possible is a good thing, as you've less chance of buggering up the musical data.

I just can't be bothered, I've used the Anthem ARC and it's just more slipstreamed than mine. Single PC programme calibrates levels, set delay/distance/phase, measures speakers and corrects all channels. REW is a pain, doing manual corrections in REW, then going to the processor, can't transfer from PC to the processor. So many options not sure in REW not sure if I'm doing it right.

REW can only measure the 7 channels not the wide and heights, so only doing half a job. I do have measurements of the heights and wides however that's using "all channel stereo" mode from REW, with just that one speaker switched on. So I can see it's response, however as I understand it the DTS X/Atmos DSP does it own EQ during this process so you shouldn't be applying EQ on it's base response.
 
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Interested in hearing what on axis vs off axis response actually means and translates too in real world listening. Also...
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I eventually stopped buying into the abject nonsense printed by the likes of What Hi-Fi. They are *not* professional reviewers. As stated elsewhere here; a speaker which does not measure well, will also not respond well to EQ by your AVR and therefore are unsuited to home cinema duties. Some speakers like B&W have a “house sound” which is fine if you like that sort of thing in a non-EQ environment (ie. 2 channel stereo) but I don’t think that’s what Kef had in mind when they made these.

A rare mis-step by Kef in my opinion. Again, it’s a shame; because their current high-end are up there with Perlisten, etc.

1: what is "house sound" you speak off. What do you mean?
2: What do you mean that it won't respond well to your AVR's EQ. Are you talking about built in presets like "Jazz", "Hall" etc. The stuff nobody uses? Or do you mean purpose made multi band EQs (which the majority of AVRs do not have or do well at any resonable price point?). My Yamaha AVR I simply tweak the bass and treble a tiny bit but largely pass through sound "as it is" from the source.

I believe in specs and totally keep them in mind with purchase decisions, but only up to a point. If you base stuff 99% on specs, you will never buy any speaker because every single one is a compromise in at least one direction, based on what the manufacturer was aiming for the product to be.



For a semi-hidden lifestyle system, I quite like M&K. I use the M&K S150s in my cinema room and these are insanely good for that application. They were at one point a bit of a favourite of movie studios, etc (having been used by Lucasfilm to mix the Star Wars prequels, etc) The MP950 is a slim on-wall version that uses the same drivers. I have these in my computer room. Really good off-axis response, so they EQ well with an AV receiver. I pair them with SVS subs, because the M&K ones are probably a bit overpriced for what you get.

The MP950s are not that slim though are they? 3 times deeper than the Kef T lines being discussed. Even the bulkiest TVs these days on basic brackets, will stick out less from the wall I would think.
 
Interested in hearing what on axis vs off axis response actually means and translates too in real world listening. Also...


1: what is "house sound" you speak off. What do you mean?
2: What do you mean that it won't respond well to your AVR's EQ. Are you talking about built in presets like "Jazz", "Hall" etc. The stuff nobody uses? Or do you mean purpose made multi band EQs (which the majority of AVRs do not have or do well at any resonable price point?). My Yamaha AVR I simply tweak the bass and treble a tiny bit but largely pass through sound "as it is" from the source.

I believe in specs and totally keep them in mind with purchase decisions, but only up to a point. If you base stuff 99% on specs, you will never buy any speaker because every single one is a compromise in at least one direction, based on what the manufacturer was aiming for the product to be.





The MP950s are not that slim though are they? 3 times deeper than the Kef T lines being discussed. Even the bulkiest TVs these days on basic brackets, will stick out less from the wall I would think.


House sound is general presentation of that speaker brand. Klipsch are regarded as honky and bright. Wharfedale is more warm, with rolled off treble

No , jazz is not the same as EQ. Parametric EQ is the AVR measuring the response of the speaker, detecting a peak say at 600hz, it then applies a reduction filter process, of so many hz wide, and so many dB reduction.


Speakers with decent frequency response will be bulky. You want to aim for 80hz at least, lower if 2 channel performance is important. If invisible speakers is a must, better to buy inwall, you can get pretty large in wall speakers

Looking at that Kef, it seems to start rolling off around 200-300hz. That's way too high and massive compromise in sound quality
 
Maybe so. My BK XLS200 sub is crossed quite high to compensate for the T101s, which clearly and very obviously need a sub to produce a good balanced sound. They are 3.5cm deep thin lines that when configured as a 5.1 or above setup, sound way better than soundbars and TV built in speakers, for a fairly decent price. I think that is the main attraction. They're not competing with anything bigger and don't intend to.

By "general presentation" do you mean stereotype of the general sound signature of that brand? i.e. bright vs warm etc?

We'd all have left and right fronts that did down to 40hz odd if we could afford and house them but we have to compromise somewhere. A tiny satellite system is never going to do well there. The sub fills in there. Every setup is a compromise. Every speaker is.
 
Maybe so. My BK XLS200 sub is crossed quite high to compensate for the T101s, which clearly and very obviously need a sub to produce a good balanced sound. They are 3.5cm deep thin lines that when configured as a 5.1 or above setup, sound way better than soundbars and TV built in speakers, for a fairly decent price. I think that is the main attraction. They're not competing with anything bigger and don't intend to.

By "general presentation" do you mean stereotype of the general sound signature of that brand? i.e. bright vs warm etc?

We'd all have left and right fronts that did down to 40hz odd if we could afford and house them but we have to compromise somewhere. A tiny satellite system is never going to do well there. The sub fills in there. Every setup is a compromise. Every speaker is.

It's not a good idea to expect a subwoofer to produce that high, as bass starts to become noticeable. I certainly wouldn't want a subwoofer to be set higher than 120hz.

Yes bright, warm, neutral etc.

My mains in room response is 24hz, rated spec is 36hz. That's with the subwoofer off, just the L/R on
 
It's not a good idea to expect a subwoofer to produce that high, as bass starts to become noticeable. I certainly wouldn't want a subwoofer to be set higher than 120hz.

Yes bright, warm, neutral etc.

My mains in room response is 24hz, rated spec is 36hz. That's with the subwoofer off, just the L/R on

Mine in fact is set to 120hz as I recall. Yes that's about the limit I would ever set a sub set at. I've generally not ever had to set one higher than about 80hz in various systems but as I say, this system is a compromise to allow extreme compact/looks whilst still sounding "good"*.

*enough :)
 
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Mine in fact is set to 120hz as I recall. Yes that's about the limit I would ever set a sub set at. I've generally not ever had to set one higher than about 80hz in various systems but as I say, this system is a compromise to allow extreme compact/looks whilst still sounding "good"*.

*enough :)


That means there could be a big gap between sub and speakers. Roll off isn't a brick wall on sub and speakers but you may find there is a gap.


If the sub is red, blue is speakers the area in 100hz is where you could be missing frequencies. Using that graph as an example it's -5db down by the time the points meet.

an more extreme example is here


its 40dB down
 
Again on paper, I can't disagree, the setup will not be anywhere near optimum. I understand the graphs and modelling up to a point as have used winisd before to help build enclosures for subs in cars. It's just with a lounge, the primary functional requirements from the setup for me in my current position, is will it fit on the walls and look very unimposing to the point of almost not being noticed. It ticks that box and therefore can exist. The alternative would be a soundbar or TV speakers.
When I bought the T series, I bought them blind and went in open minded, not knowing what to expect. In reality I genuinely expected them to sound not great. As long as you have a decent all round sub that's not sloppy (my preference is sealed) and always have the sub on and it is powered/sized for the room and the to compliment, the setup is passable as pretty good to my ears.
 
Again on paper, I can't disagree, the setup will not be anywhere near optimum. I understand the graphs and modelling up to a point as have used winisd before to help build enclosures for subs in cars. It's just with a lounge, the primary functional requirements from the setup for me in my current position, is will it fit on the walls and look very unimposing to the point of almost not being noticed. It ticks that box and therefore can exist. The alternative would be a soundbar or TV speakers.
When I bought the T series, I bought them blind and went in open minded, not knowing what to expect. In reality I genuinely expected them to sound not great. As long as you have a decent all round sub that's not sloppy (my preference is sealed) and always have the sub on and it is powered/sized for the room and the to compliment, the setup is passable as pretty good to my ears.

Nah mate, your wrong. The KEF T's are objectively rubbish. ;)
 
Interested in hearing what on axis vs off axis response actually means and translates too in real world listening. Also...


1: what is "house sound" you speak off. What do you mean?
2: What do you mean that it won't respond well to your AVR's EQ. Are you talking about built in presets like "Jazz", "Hall" etc. The stuff nobody uses? Or do you mean purpose made multi band EQs (which the majority of AVRs do not have or do well at any resonable price point?). My Yamaha AVR I simply tweak the bass and treble a tiny bit but largely pass through sound "as it is" from the source.

I believe in specs and totally keep them in mind with purchase decisions, but only up to a point. If you base stuff 99% on specs, you will never buy any speaker because every single one is a compromise in at least one direction, based on what the manufacturer was aiming for the product to be.





The MP950s are not that slim though are they? 3 times deeper than the Kef T lines being discussed. Even the bulkiest TVs these days on basic brackets, will stick out less from the wall I would think.

1. “House sound” is typically what you call a “California curve”. Boosted bass and treble; recessed mids. Not flat. Looks like a smiley-face on a graph. Designed to sound superficially pleasing with music in a showroom; and perhaps this might be user preference in a dedicated 2 channel system without EQ.

2. I don’t mean the “presets” you’re referring to. I’ve already explained what I mean by this: With speakers, you get -broadly- two categories of sound. The direct sound from the drivers; and the sound from the room interactions. That’s unavoidable. Therefore ideally, you need a speaker’s “off axis” response to be broadly similar to its on-axis response. That way, the sound from the room interactions is broadly similar. A lot of badly designed speakers from the likes of B&W have wildly different responses, which means that when you apply your room EQ (DIRAC; Audyssey; Roomperfect; ARC; YPAO; etc), the algorithms can’t do anything to meaningfully “flatten the curve” and it just sounds horrible. Even worse without room EQ.

MP950s don’t stick out particularly much. Even with my thin LG OLEDs; they’ve got some booty on them where the VESA mounts are; which mean you can’t really get a flush fit anyway.

The compromise -in my view- that the T series makes isn’t on cabinet volume. That just means they’re going to lack bass extension; which is fine (as you’d be crossing over with subs anyway). Rather, the compromise is the drivers. They have really poor off-axis response, which means they are unsuited to cinema duties (their main role). Were Kef to take another stab at them and apply the lessons they’ve learned on co-axial drivers since 2010, I think they’d be a really good speaker.
 
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