Make cannabis a Class A Drug, say Conservative Police Commissioners...

Yeah sure go speak to any grower check out any growing forum, group, convention (there's a big one in South England every year.

Heck get yourself a sample and go send it off to a tester.

But just like the financial crash there isn't exactly a peer reviewed study.
No, I said you are going to have to back up that claim with evidence.

None of what you just posted is evidence.

You may believe it.

It may even be true.

But it is not evidence, you are simply spouting "what you believe".

Stop trying to portray "what you believe" as factual.
 
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No, I said you are going to have to back up that claim with evidence.

None of what you just posted is evidence.

You may believe it.

It may even be true.

But it is not evidence, you are simply spouting "what you believe".

Stop trying to portray "what you believe" as factual.
Ok, I mean yeah.




https://www.analyticalcannabis.com/.../Resources/Articles/DRE-cannabis-lab-shopping

 
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Ok, I mean yeah.

Good Effort, really.

About as good as your previous posts where you claim "Yeh sure, go speak to any grower in a forum" as proof of your claims that lab tests are falsified.

OK lets take a look at those posts you put on there..

One is from LINKEDIN.. what the flying **** does LinkedIn know at all about cannabis testing?

And your third link.. "OUR TAKE on lab shopping ...." So it's an opinion piece then?

Seriously, Linkedin and opinion pieces are your "proof" ?

With that level of "evidence" and "supporting articles" I'm surprised you didn't just start quoting the Daily Mail. :rolleyes:
 
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N
Good Effort, really.

About as good as your previous posts where you claim "Yeh sure, go speak to any grower in a forum" as proof of your claims that lab tests are falsified.

OK lets take a look at those posts you put on there..

One is from LINKEDIN.. what the flying **** does LinkedIn know at all about cannabis testing?

And your third link.. "OUR TAKE on lab shopping ...." So it's an opinion piece then?

Seriously, Linkedin and opinion pieces are your "proof" ?

I bet you LOVE the daily mail too, with that level of "evidence" and "supporting articles"


Yeah sure ignore the journal link


I mean what are you an investor in a dodgy start up or something?
It's been an issue for over a decade as there's no buyer side purchasing

"Using HPLC, we analyzed THC potency in 23 samples from 10 dispensaries throughout the Colorado Front Range and compared the results to the THC potency reported on the packaging. Average observed THC potency was 14.98 +/- 2.23%, which is substantially lower than recent reports summarizing dispensary reported THC potency. The average observed THC potency was 23.1% lower than the lowest label reported values and 35.6% lower than the highest label reported values"

Whats a mere 35% over reporting between friends eh?

The linked in is called bait ;)

I'm 100% sure the various authorities passing bills and laws around this problem are solely doing it for ***** and giggles. Not because there's an issue
 
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N


Yeah sure ignore the journal link


I mean what are you an investor in a dodgy start up or something?
It's been an issue for over a decade as there's no buyer side purchasing

I did not ignore it.

I pointed out that 2 of the 3 pieces of "evidence" you chose to post to support your belief(s) are entirely irrelevant, One from Linkedin and another being an opinion piece.

Good job though at focusing on the 33% of evidence to provided that MIGHT support your position, while completely ignoring the 66% of evidence you provided is total horse ****.

I mean, what are you, a simpleton who only reads opinion pieces and idiots on Linked-in for your proof?


*Edit*

There is no "buyer side testing" for most pharmaceuticals or food stuffs either, Is that all "just advertising" too ?

I can't wait to see the long list of test results you have from sending off your medication(s) / food just to make sure it's not all lies and just being done "for advertising". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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Just wanted to leave a quick comment regarding THC strength.
A grower can manipulate the result by harvesting a sample early.
Eg. as the cannabis buds mature, the trichomes change colour (clear to cloudy to amber) and clear trichomes will have much lower THC then a bud with a mix of cloudy/amber trichomes.
They even give you a different 'high'
Clear trichomes give you an uplifting buzz whilst amber trichomes with give you that heavy couchlock high.
 
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There is no "buyer side testing" for most pharmaceuticals or food stuffs either, Is that all "just advertising" too ?

Are you kidding? Seriously? There is massive buyer side testing.

Go take your wheat to a flour mill and see if they test it vs accepting your statement of its protien content.
 
Just wanted to leave a quick comment regarding THC strength.
A grower can manipulate the result by harvesting a sample early.
Eg. as the cannabis buds mature, the trichomes change colour (clear to cloudy to amber) and clear trichomes will have much lower THC then a bud with a mix of cloudy/amber trichomes.
They even give you a different 'high'
Clear trichomes give you an uplifting buzz whilst amber trichomes with give you that heavy couchlock high.

Yep, there are endless ways to manipulate it, the old sprinkle it with crystals being the most basic, very intensive hand trimming and plucking , and shaping of the sample vs the automated trimming drum product you sell, over drying etc etc
Then you've got the issue of this actualy being a per bud/level issue for each plant. Yes your top colas are starting to turn orange but your bulk layer at the net is not even close to milky so you're submitting an ideal sample thats not representative of 80% of your yield. But its accepted that that's OK. This plant made this bud that was tested so everyones happy to put that % on the label even though that's not what you're getting.
 
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Are you kidding? Seriously? There is massive buyer side testing.

Go take your wheat to a flour mill and see if they test it vs accepting your statement of its protien content.

Show me the "buyer side testing" for pharmaceuticals please?

Show me the "buyer side testing" for alcohol please?

Show me the "buyer side testing" for cakes?

Do you open each packet in store before you buy the product?

Or is it all just advertising?

*Edit**

You are (in your example above) talking about the testing of ingredients that are used to make a final product, not testing of the final product itself.

That is fundamentally dishonest, as "Cannabis" IS the final product and when we compare that to other "final products" what do we see? Basically 0 "buyer side testing" for any of it.

You take the companies word for it when they say "40% alcohol by volume" on that bottle of spirits, but that was tested by the company, not the buyer. Is it just all advertising and lies?
 
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Show me the "buyer side testing" for pharmaceuticals please?

Show me the "buyer side testing" for alcohol please?

Show me the "buyer side testing" for cakes?

Do you open each packet in store before you buy the product?

Or is it all just advertising?

*Edit**

You are (in your example above) talking about the testing of ingredients that are used to make a final product, not testing of the final product itself.

That is fundamentally dishonest, as "Cannabis" IS the final product and when we compare that to other "final products" what do we see? Basically 0 "buyer side testing" for any of it.

You take the companies word for it when they say "40% alcohol by volume" on that bottle of spirits, but that was tested by the company, not the buyer. Is it just all advertising and lies?

Cakes is the wheat comment I already made.

Pharmaceuticals is fda and nice testing.

Meat is the dna testing, remember the horse meat scandle? That want caught by Romanian abotuores selling it was it?

Tesco, asda, m&s all do quality testing of thier suppliers.

40% by volume is tested by the tax man you can google the hilarious glass cage for scotch testing where it is the tax man who has the keys. You want to take on the tax man as an alcohol producer go for it.ive got a hydrometer send me a bottle of gin and I'll test if for you

Canabis is a sellers testing market as its advertising, in the UK what buyer is testing? "Hi guys I'm a criminal" ? Usa fda doesn't yet cover cannabis testing (last i checked its been a while).

It's a sellers market for testing not a buyers one.

Feel free to Google this you'll find it's a pretty widespread issue from legit growers to concerned buyers.

The fact you take offense to this is really strange to me, does your dealer claim a 30% thc rate to you and thats why you're paying 400 for an ounce of runtz or something?
 
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Fair point on the spot-testing of products which led to the discovery of the Horsemeat scandal some years back, I had forgotten that.

However, you are slightly incorrect with regard to the FDA...

image.png


(Taken directly from FDA website :- Linky )

So while Pharmaceuticals have their testing information / procedure / results are reviewed by FDA appointed personnel, the FDA does not conduct any type of testing themselves.

I would like to see more regulation around the lab testing of substances (both pharmaceutical and recreational) as even with prescription drugs, the FDA do not actually conduct any testing of their own to verify the results provided to them by the manufacturer.

*edit* My google-fu may be failing me, I tried to see if it's the same in the UK also, but struggled to find an answer with a "quick google".
 
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Fair point on the spot-testing of products which led to the discovery of the Horsemeat scandal some years back, I had forgotten that.

However, you are slightly incorrect with regard to the FDA...

image.png


(Taken directly from FDA website :- Linky )

So while Pharmaceuticals have their testing information / procedure / results are reviewed by FDA appointed personnel, the FDA does not conduct any type of testing themselves.

I would like to see more regulation around the lab testing of substances (both pharmaceutical and recreational) as even with prescription drugs, the FDA do not actually conduct any testing of their own to verify the results provided to them by the manufacturer.

*edit* My google-fu may be failing me, I tried to see if it's the same in the UK also, but struggled to find an answer with a "quick google".
You've made a mistake on "testing"there for the fda that's regarding efficacy and approval not ongoing testing of quality the fda maintains standards testing.


Ie the fda requires you to prove your drug does X but once you've proved that the fda maintains testing that your aspirin tablet is actualy aspirin (but it does so via you submitting results and commiting federal crime levels of fraud to decieve them)

But we're uk so its nice where its far more proactive in that regard. I wholeheartedly suggest you submit a sample you think you know to a uk tester they all take anonymous submissions if you've been told it is a "x%" strain as it's totaly down to conditions and trimming.
 
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You've made a mistake on "testing"there for the fda that's regarding efficacy and approval not ongoing testing of quality the fda maintains standards testing.


Ie the fda requires you to prove your drug does X but once you've proved that the fda maintains testing that your aspirin tablet is actualy aspirin (but it does so via you submitting results and commiting federal crime levels of fraud to decieve them)

But we're uk so its nice where its far more proactive in that regard

Having just spent more time reading through their site, you're correct, they have a separate section entirely on quality control / efficacy. I guess that's what happens with a quick 5 minute google of "FDA Drug Testing", I had to dig deeper lol.

Oddly reading through their page on QC / efficacy testing it's very vague on the method / regularity employed. (maybe intentionally so to keep the nature of the tests entirely "random"?)

One section states :-

Testing

We use a risk-based approach to quality testing. This means that in cases where there is a known or likely safety, effectiveness, or quality issue with a product, FDA scientists perform specific tests for this vulnerability. As you can see in the results below, the majority of drugs FDA tests meet their specifications.

Which almost makes it sound like they test "reactively" to complaint(s) rather than proactively? (although again I guess this could be intentional vague-wording to prevent any kind of "pre-empting" of testing?)


In an attempt to steer the thread back towards the title from this brief detour, I do agree with you that there should be some kind of regulation / independent testing to verify the quality, strength and check(s) for possible impurities.
 
The fda is very very bad vs nice/eu standards yes.

I would now love for you to find pre 2008 evidence for debt rating testing being inaccurate.

Given its the closest example market and most of the work should have been done for you since the "big short" became popular.

I do agree with you that there should be some kind of regulation / independent testing to verify the quality, strength and check(s) for possible impurities.

But there is! Loads of it it's just paid for by the seller not the buyer.

It's 100% indipendant and free from collaboration you will not find the slightest bit of seller/tester collaboration as that would be illegal.

Go find me a single peice of evidence where a tester has artificially inflated a value on behalf of a seller. You won't find that as you can't order a supina.

What you gonna do find a linked in article from growers and buyers?
 
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There's an obvious flaw here though, cannabis is already illegal and the stronger stuff is already widespread, you risk not only normalising/popularising cannabis use but it doesn't necessarily mean the stronger stuff just goes away.

Do we have a problem with homemade illegal moonshine in the UK? Are there men out in the woods and on abandoned industrial estates across the country running moonshine stills to produce alcohol for the illegal local alcohol market? NO. Clearly not. Why is that? Because people in this country who drink alcohol prefer to have safe, legally-regulated, sophisticated (meaning a range of flavours/carbonation/ABVs etc), convenient to buy alcoholic products.

They don't want a crude unpleasant tasting high-ABV spirit which could contain toxic chemicals (like methanol, BPA, phthalates etc) and possession of which is ILLEGAL when there are far better and safer legal alternatives. Maybe a few alcoholics would buy locally produced >80% ABV illegal moonshine (because it's cheap) but the vast majority of people wouldn't touch it and certainly wouldn't want to associate with violent criminals to get it.

But during prohibition in the USA illegal locally produced moonshine was commonly drunk and distributed by the Mafia. Because most people who wanted to drink didn't have much of a choice if they had limited funds (smuggled alcoholic beverages were sometimes available) as alcohol was ILLEGAL. Notice a similarity? If we had a LEGAL recreational cannabis market here it would take most of the customers away from the illegal market.

Most people who use cannabis are not problem users or addicts. They just enjoy using it in moderation/socially, (just like most people who drink alcohol use it sensibly). But in order to get cannabis they have to break the law and buy what is available on the black market
(mostly Skunk - which is also the worst form of herbal cannabis from the point of view of causing mental illness).

As I showed with a reference in my last reply to you, people with a high genetic risk of schizophrenia, those in the prodromal phase of it and schizophrenics seem to have a high affinity for using cannabis. It turns out that this is not a coincidence, habitual cannabis use and addiction are now known to be inherited traits. According to this genome-wide association study (published in the prestigious scientific journal Nature Neuroscience) this subgroup of the population not only has an increased risk of developing schizophrenia from heavy use of cannabis, but they also have a genetic predisposition to being at high-risk of becoming habitual/addicted users of it. (Just like there is a genetic predisposition to being at high-risk of becoming an alcoholic.)

Given that illegal cannabis is widely available in this country (in its most risky form) then it is very likely that most people who are at risk from cannabis-induced schizophrenia are already using it. I mean pretty much everyone will come across it in their teenage years at school/uni now and if they have a genetic predisposition to becoming habitual users or addicts of it then they would probably have just continued using it. Therefore, it's unlikely that legalising the safer forms of it would make much difference to this group. Few of them are likely to be cannabis-virgins who only start experimenting with it after it's legalised, (especially if there is an AIDS-style TV public education campaign in the run-up to legalisation to warn them).

Producing and selling Skunk will be a far less profitable business once the drug-dealers lose most of their customers.
The customers who remain are likely to be the aforementioned genetically predisposed schizophrenics and people who cannot buy it legally (under-18s). But if drug-dealers target those two vulnerable groups then there will be much more support for aggressive Police efforts to crack down on them hard. (At the moment, many casual recreational cannabis users resent the Police for enforcing its prohibition, but if they could use it legally and their ex-drug-dealers started selling only to kids and the mentally ill then they would have no ethical qualms about reporting them to the Police.)

Secondary to that there are the health risks, both the fact it's often used alongside tobacco and also the previously mentioned mental health issues...

It is commonly smoked with tobacco in this country due to it mostly only being available in the form of crude plant material because it is ILLEGAL and drug-dealers have no interest in making it safer or the means to do it. In jurisdictions where it is legal it is available for vaping (which is known to be 20 times safer then smoking). If it's legalised, efforts can be made to find the safest methods of ingestion for it and those methods can be standardised and enforced by state-regulation.

I have discussed (above) the issue with people at high-risk of developing psychotic illness from heavy use of it.

while strong strains might have higher risk it's not like long-term use of controlled/legal cannabis which we say try to regulate to avoid the strongest strains won't also carry these risks to some extent too.

The risk of developing a psychotic illness from heavy long-term use is to a genetically susceptible subgroup of the population who are also genetically predisposed to having a high-risk of becoming habitual users or addicts. That group are likely to already be users and those that are cannabis-virgins before legalisation can be put-off using it by a public education campaign before legalisation.

People could also be offered genetic counselling before using it for the first time if they are worried because they have a history of mental illness in their family. (There is a DNA test which can detect the genetic susceptibility to having a high-risk of cannabis-induced schizophrenia.) If the government wanted another safeguard for this problem, they could even mandate that anyone who wants to buy legal recreational cannabis products must get signed off as not believed to be at high-risk by their GP first.

Medical use - fine, decriminalise small quantities used by individuals but legalisaiton doesn't seem like a good idea.

Decriminalisation stops naive youngsters having their futures ruined by getting a criminal record for cannabis possession, which is obviously desirable. But it doesn't do anything to stop the drug-dealers who are peddling the most dangerous forms of cannabis here (Skunk and Spice).

Cannabis has been illegal in this country for almost a century. It's gone from Class B, to Class C, then back up to Class B and now the right-wingers want it to go to Class A. It's about time we adopted a more sensible pragmatic approach to dealing with it. Clearly, the current prohibitionist policy is making it a very lucrative business for ruthless criminals and not protecting the most vulnerable people from it.
 
Do we have a problem with homemade illegal moonshine in the UK? Are there men out in the woods and on abandoned industrial estates across the country running moonshine stills to produce alcohol for the illegal local alcohol market? NO. Clearly not. Why is that? Because people in this country who drink alcohol prefer to have safe, legally-regulated, sophisticated (meaning a range of flavours/carbonation/ABVs etc), convenient to buy alcoholic products.

You're again ignoring what happens in jurisdictions where it is legal - do people buy the stronger strains there - yup. So why try to draw flawed comparisons with alcohol?

Given that illegal cannabis is widely available in this country (in its most risky form) then it is very likely that most people who are at risk from cannabis-induced schizophrenia are already using it.

No, that doesn't follow at all - even if there were some overlap with cannabis use, most people are not habitual cannabis users for a start, quite far from it.

It is commonly smoked with tobacco in this country due to it mostly only being available in the form of crude plant material because it is ILLEGAL and drug-dealers have no interest in making it safer or the means to do it. In jurisdictions where it is legal it is available for vaping (which is known to be 20 times safer then smoking).

It's available for vaping in the UK too - but we don't need to indulge in make-believe here, there are countries where cannabis is legal that we can already look at... it's not all vaped in California or in Amsterdam

Decriminalisation stops naive youngsters having their futures ruined by getting a criminal record for cannabis possession, which is obviously desirable. But it doesn't do anything to stop the drug-dealers who are peddling the most dangerous forms of cannabis here (Skunk and Spice).

Neither does legalisation - if there was so much demand for the milder forms then why are the stronger strains both popular here (where it's illegal) and in jurisdictions where it's legal?

How do you stop that - keep the stronger strains illegal? They already are and they're already popular while illegal... and if there's demand for them then there's still going to be a market for skunk from dealers who aren't going to be registered for VAT and duty and corporation tax etc..
 
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You're again ignoring what happens in jurisdictions where it is legal - do people buy the stronger strains there - yup. So why try to draw flawed comparisons with alcohol?

Those jurisdictions are free to set their own rules on what will be a legal cannabis product there. If they are stupid enough to legalise Skunk then more fool them. We don't have to copy how other countries regulate legal recreational cannabis products.

It's not about stronger strains, but about strains with high-THC/low(or no)-CBD ratios (like Skunk). A high-THC concentration product with an equal concentration of CBD isn't a problem, users just use less of it to get high and have no elevated risk of cannabis-psychosis.

Once we have taken away most of the black market's cannabis customers we can put the boot into the Skunk producers and dealers much more effectively.

No, that doesn't follow at all - even if there were some overlap with cannabis use, most people are not habitual cannabis users for a start, quite far from it.

But as I have already shown with peer-reviewed scientific journals papers, those with a genetic predisposition for a high-risk of cannabis-induced schizophrenia are also genetically predisposed to being at a high-risk of becoming habitual users or addicts. Thus, if they are exposed to it (illegally) during their teenage years then they are much more likely to continue using it illegally than normal people.

It's available for vaping in the UK too - but we don't need to indulge in make-believe here, there are countries where cannabis is legal that we can already look at... it's not all vaped in California or in Amsterdam

The cannabis available for vaping in the UK is mostly in the legal medical market. Most of the black market cannabis here is consumed by smoking it.

Then that is a flaw in the regulations they drafted when they legalised it. We don't have to copy their mistakes.

Neither does legalisation - if there was so much demand for the milder forms then why are the stronger strains both popular here (where it's illegal) and in jurisdictions where it's legal?

Drug-dealers can make bigger profits out of Skunk because it produces a larger volume of high-THC concentration biomass in the right growing conditions. It can be grown locally and so they don't have the extra risk involved in smuggling cannabis into the country.

The traditional Hash strains had 3 - 4% THC content and equal THC/CBD ratios, whereas Skunk has over 10% THC and a high-THC/low(or no)-CBD ratio.

Obviously, if the drug-dealers can produce 3 times more of the intoxicating ingredient (THC) for the same volume of biomass (and Skunk plants also grow to a larger size than traditional Indian Hemp Hash plants - producing more biomass) then they will do it to maximise their profits. Their black market customer can only buy what is available.

The dealers want a more concentrated product (which is more intoxicating) because it is more likely to cause dependence/addiction in their customers so they get repeat business.

Many people buying Skunk legally in other jurisdictions may be unaffected by the cannabis psychosis high-THC/low-CBD problem (no genetic susceptibility to it), or they may be mentally ill addicts. The decision to make Skunk available legally there is one for their legislatures and we do not have to copy them.

How do you stop that - keep the stronger strains illegal? They already are and they're already popular while illegal... and if there's demand for them then there's still going to be a market for skunk from dealers who aren't going to be registered for VAT and duty and corporation tax etc..

But over 95% of the illegal cannabis available in the UK is Skunk, so it's not as if most users have the choice to use a safer strain, which also gives a smoother high and doesn't stink like ****.

Once most recreational cannabis users move to a legal regulated cannabis product there won't be the big profits available for the Skunk dealers. The authorities can then use more forceful methods to deal with Skunk/Spice dealers. Decent people who use illegal cannabis will not want to protect their former drug-dealers if they begin selling Skunk/Spice almost exclusively to children or the mentally ill and they are likely to help law enforcement to stop them.
 
But as I have already shown with peer-reviewed scientific journals papers, those with a genetic predisposition for a high-risk of cannabis-induced schizophrenia are also genetically predisposed to being at a high-risk of becoming habitual users or addicts. Thus, if they are exposed to it (illegally) during their teenage years then they are much more likely to continue using it illegally than normal people.

Yes, but that's a different claim also I already showed you papers supporting that. That the risk increases doesn't support the previous claim you made: "it is very likely that most people who are at risk from cannabis-induced schizophrenia are already using it." That's still unsupported.

The cannabis available for vaping in the UK is mostly in the legal medical market. Most of the black market cannabis here is consumed by smoking it.
Then that is a flaw in the regulations they drafted when they legalised it. We don't have to copy their mistakes.

So are you proposing to only legalise cannabis via liquid products for vaping?

Once most recreational cannabis users move to a legal regulated cannabis product there won't be the big profits available for the Skunk dealers.

Why not? What evidence is there to support that claim given that in both legal and illegal markets there's clearly demand for it. You may as well consider it another drug even - does legalising weed in California or Amsterdam mean other drugs aren't sold?
 
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