US: Making a Murderer (Netflix)

Soldato
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Blood splatter can be hard to win a case on, but there is plenty of other very shocking things she uncovered which would be huge red flags to any reasonable Jury:

- All the Brady violations (including completely withholding evidence such as the HDD analysis)
- The witness who spoke to the cop about the location of Teresa car
- Her planner, and how her BF obtained this when it was meant to be in her car given her last known steps
- The ballistics information from the bullet the state claimed was used to kill her

The things that stands out to me the most with the whole case that make me believe he is innocent, or at the very least not guilty in the way the state suggests:

1. If this was a horrific murder as they suggest (Rape, dismemberment etc.) then why is there not more DNA evidence to prove these things? No cuff marks on the bed, no blood in the room of the trailer, no DNA evidence etc. (from memory) to suggest these things ever happened.

2. He apparently burnt her body in a burn barrel to get rid of the evidence - there is plenty of science to confirm how hard this would be, in addition to creating yet more DNA sources to cover up. Which the state would have you believe he did very well?

3. Based on point 2: He is amazing at getting rid of a body and associated DNA evidence from a crime scene but not amazing at getting rid of a vehicle that links him to the supposed crime? Yet lives on a salvage yard I assume with access to a crusher (as you see that in Season 2)?

4. If he was so good at getting rid of DNA evidence (again as per point 2) why didn't he get rid of the painfully obvious blood from the car he didn't crush?

There are so many things that just don't add up here...
 

Deleted member 11679

D

Deleted member 11679

Blasted season 2 over the weekend. Wow, this guy truly deserves a re-trial and his new lawyer is phenomenal at her job.
 
Soldato
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Your argument puts you in a terrible position that's difficult to maintain.

In the actual interrogation itself, once the police apply some pressure to get him to talk - the information begins to flow quite freely, they encounter some initial resistance, but I don't see that as unusual for a young boy who's found himself in a lot of trouble and knows it. It's exactly how I'd expect the first part of an interrogation to go - he takes a bit of softening up. This is true of many of many other interrogations I've watched, things get off to a slow difficult start - then once the officers establish a bit of a rapport, progress is made and information starts to come out, I don't see anything remarkable at all.

They offer him drinks, food, breaks - as far as I can tell, compared to other interrogations I've watched they were pretty reasonable with him.

Onto the evidence, how do you explain the amount of information he gives, that matches with the crime scene?;

  1. Brendan Dassey volunteers on his own - that Avery initially wanted to dispose of Halbachs body in the lake (gravel pit) and put her body in the back of the Jeep, he then changed his mind and decided to burn her - which explains why her remains were in the burn pit AND why her blood was in the back of the Jeep - that was Brendans information that matches what was found at the scene.
  2. He recalls a lot of detail regarding how the body was burnt, including how they used tyres and how Steven used a rake to stoke the fire, on the scene her bones were found entwined with around 5x tyres, and a rake nearby was found with bone fragments on it. This was Brendan's information from his statement none of it came from the Police and it matched the scene.
  3. He describes (entirely by himself) how and where they placed her Rav4, how they covered it in branches and other stuff, how Steven took the plates off (because the plates were missing when it was found) All of this came from Brendan and matches exactly how it was found, he even explains what happened to the plates.
  4. He volunteers a lot of additional information, such as how he raped Halbach, how her throat was cut but she didn't die, many of the things she was saying as she pleaded for her life - why would he further incriminate himself by making up these additional unnecessary admissions? I say he admitted the truth because he couldn't handle it and, he didn't have enough mental fortitude to be able to spar with a pair of detectives who've caught him bang to rights.
  5. He explained how in the process of ditching her Rav4, Avery went and opened the hood - low and behold, when police swab under the hood - they find Avery's DNA on the latch. How is Brendan able to offer such useful and accurate information if everything he's making up is a lie and fabricated?
  6. The vast majority of these intricate details were not publicised at the time of Brendan's interrogation, so it seems extremely unlikely to me that he could make up this great big story full of intricate detail, (such as the burning of her, the details of the car, etc) and it actually line up with the crime scene, it's insane to think he made it all up.
  7. Further more; all of this goes directly against Steven Avery because we know Halbach was on the Avery premises on Oct 31st, we know Steven Avery had asked her specifically to go, so we know the victim was in that area at that time, pretty much the exact same time Brendan claims in his statement - the timeline adds up,

I put it to you, that it's literally almost impossible in light of the evidence - that Brendan could have totally fabricated the above 7 points, and they so closely match up with what was found at the murder scene and the timeline, it's ridiculous.

This is why he was found guilty, and why he's sat in a jail cell.

In a lot of trouble and he knows it?

He asks them if he will be going back to school in time to take part in a report ffs!

He is clearly under the impression that since he has given them the story they wanted that he is free to go about his life!
 
Soldato
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In a lot of trouble and he knows it?

He asks them if he will be going back to school in time to take part in a report ffs!

He is clearly under the impression that since he has given them the story they wanted that he is free to go about his life!

No I don't think so, Brendan fills in gaps that couldn't be known by anyone else other than the people who killed her, as I've already listed above. (However a good example would be his explanation as to how Teresa's blood was found in the back of her own Jeep, because that was totally unknown, until Brendan explained how - and it was all detail that he volunteered on his own)

Furthermore, he more or less tells the same thing on three separate occasions at three different interviews, and also confesses it to his own mother in a phone call.

Lastly - something else I discovered from the case file, was that in his interviews with detectives, Steven Avery denied having burnt anything in his burn pit for a number of weeks before Halbach was at his property. However later on in a recorded prison phone call between himself and Brendan's mother, Steven Avery admitted having a fire that very night (outside his trailer the night she disappeared) and that Brendan was there with him. Best of luck explaining that one away.

So not only does Brendan's statement add up to the facts at the crime scene - Steven Avery also places him there in his own words, essentially they successfully manage to implicate each other quite effectively.
 
Soldato
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And it has been disproved that the blood got there in the way he said by a leading blood splatter expert.

I hope you're not referring to the quite ridiculous pseudoscience employed by Zellner's crew in season 2? because it can all be rejected outright, along with any claims about blood, bullets, bone fragments, brain waves or whatever.

Pile of nonsense, all of it.
 
Soldato
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I just finished s2 so I can finally start looking into all of these. Wow, what a series. I don't think Steven Avery did it, but I don't feel strongly enough to sit here arguing about it. But Brendan Dassey. Wow, how could . country like the US allow a minor to be interrogated without a lawyer, without a responsible adult present. And then convict him on the basis of that alone -- with absolutely zero evidence apart from the words that would quite clearly coerced out of him. Insane.

He recalls a lot of detail regarding how the body was burnt, including how they used tyres and how Steven used a rake to stoke the fire, on the scene her bones were found entwined with around 5x tyres, and a rake nearby was found with bone fragments on it. This was Brendan's information from his statement none of it came from the Police and it matched the scene.
Except your fire expert states quite definitively that it's impossible to burn a body in an open fire pit. I don't remember BD offering much information on the fire itself, anyway.

He describes (entirely by himself) how and where they placed her Rav4, how they covered it in branches and other stuff, how Steven took the plates off (because the plates were missing when it was found) All of this came from Brendan and matches exactly how it was found, he even explains what happened to the plates.
Within about 5mins of the car being found, everybody and their dog knew it was covered in branches and the licence plate was missing. It doesn't take a boy-genius to say "yeah we put branches over it" because that is what he saw on the news. Duh.

He volunteers a lot of additional information, such as how he raped Halbach, how her throat was cut but she didn't die, many of the things she was saying as she pleaded for her life - why would he further incriminate himself by making up these additional unnecessary admissions? I say he admitted the truth because he couldn't handle it and, he didn't have enough mental fortitude to be able to spar with a pair of detectives who've caught him bang to rights.
I could say I did all of that stuff. I could sit opposite two detectives and we could have a camera on me. Doesn't make any of it true though. There is absolutely zero evidence to show that she was raped, zero evidence to show that she was even in SA's bedroom (where apparently all this stuff happened). Heck even I know if you slit someone's throat and stab them in the stomach you're going to have a hard time cleaning that up. It's ludicrous to imagine two rednecks (one with mental difficulties) could (a) clear that up 100% and (b) do it so that it didn't even look like they'd cleaned it up. There is zero evidence of it happening, and zero evidence of a clean up. Hell, there's not even marks on the bed where she was supposedly tied up. Don't you think somebody tied-up, pleading for their life would make some sort of mark on the bed frame? :confused:

He explained how in the process of ditching her Rav4, Avery went and opened the hood - low and behold, when police swab under the hood - they find Avery's DNA on the latch. How is Brendan able to offer such useful and accurate information if everything he's making up is a lie and fabricated?
This is easy because it's fresh in my mind. This idea was clearly planted by the detectives, they repeatedly asked BD "what did Steven then do with the car", "did he go in it", "did he open it up, maybe at the back", "where did he open it"... In the end they get annoyed and just say "did he open the hood" and BD just goes along with them. That's all. Clear and pointed coercion. Go back and watch it, that was one of the most obvious bits in the interview tape.

The vast majority of these intricate details were not publicised at the time of Brendan's interrogation, so it seems extremely unlikely to me that he could make up this great big story full of intricate detail, (such as the burning of her, the details of the car, etc) and it actually line up with the crime scene, it's insane to think he made it all up.
As above. Every body knew the car was discovered covered in branches etc, everybody knew they found bones in the firepit.

Further more; all of this goes directly against Steven Avery because we know Halbach was on the Avery premises on Oct 31st, we know Steven Avery had asked her specifically to go, so we know the victim was in that area at that time, pretty much the exact same time Brendan claims in his statement - the timeline adds up,
I don't think anyone would argue she wasn't there :confused:

Explain the fact you have a Supreme court judge that says the interview made her "sick". That person isn't like us, they're not watching some dramatised TV show, she's probably seen hundreds of interview tapes, if not thousands. Including ones with coercion, confessions... the works. To have someone of her power, her capability, her knowledge of the law say that interview made her "sick" -- that is absolutely damning of the whole thing.
 
Soldato
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Except your fire expert states quite definitively that it's impossible to burn a body in an open fire pit. I don't remember BD offering much information on the fire itself, anyway.

Firstly which expert says this - when and where?

Secondly it's a straw man argument; Nobody claims an entire body was burnt in the pit, some of it was found in burn barrels, so it's entirely possible that Avery divided up the body into barrels to make it burn quicker.

In Brendan's statement, he explains how they used tires, and a rake to stoke the fire - so exactly what more you need I'm unsure.

Within about 5mins of the car being found, everybody and their dog knew it was covered in branches and the licence plate was missing. It doesn't take a boy-genius to say "yeah we put branches over it" because that is what he saw on the news. Duh.

I could say I did all of that stuff. I could sit opposite two detectives and we could have a camera on me. Doesn't make any of it true though. There is absolutely zero evidence to show that she was raped, zero evidence to show that she was even in SA's bedroom (where apparently all this stuff happened). Heck even I know if you slit someone's throat and stab them in the stomach you're going to have a hard time cleaning that up. It's ludicrous to imagine two rednecks (one with mental difficulties) could (a) clear that up 100% and (b) do it so that it didn't even look like they'd cleaned it up. There is zero evidence of it happening, and zero evidence of a clean up. Hell, there's not even marks on the bed where she was supposedly tied up. Don't you think somebody tied-up, pleading for their life would make some sort of mark on the bed frame? :confused:

This is easy because it's fresh in my mind. This idea was clearly planted by the detectives, they repeatedly asked BD "what did Steven then do with the car", "did he go in it", "did he open it up, maybe at the back", "where did he open it"... In the end they get annoyed and just say "did he open the hood" and BD just goes along with them. That's all. Clear and pointed coercion. Go back and watch it, that was one of the most obvious bits in the interview tape.

As above. Every body knew the car was discovered covered in branches etc, everybody knew they found bones in the firepit.

This has already mostly been discussed here; https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/making-a-murderer-the-avery-case-spoilers.18712417/page-16

On the bedroom;

It's impossible to say how much evidence was cleaned up, furthermore - it's impossible to say how much blood there was, in Brendan's testimony - the cut to her throat sounded more like a scratch and she certainly didn't die, he says she was stabbed, but we don't know exactly how she we stabbed. Stab wounds can produce totally different amounts of blood, it's possible to stab someone and there be literally no blood at all (internal haemorrhage) or there can be enormous amounts, either we can't say how - Brendan does say they burnt bloodstained sheets in the burn pit (from his confession)

Furthermore; Steven Avery had almost 6 days from the day Halbach went missing, until they found her car on his lot - that's 6 whole days to clean up, destroy or burn whatever evidence there might be, on a junkyard with an almost infinite amount of places to burn/dispose of things, it seems quite plausible to me that he had enough time to clean everything up.

It's also not true to suggest there was zero evidence of any cleanup, in Avery's trailer they found numerous empty bottles of bleach, in the garage (where Brendan claims she was shot and where they found Halbach's DNA on a bullet fragment) the garage floor provided a positive luminol test, (reacts with blood and / or bleach) furthermore, the jeans Brendan handed into the detectives were badly stained with bleach........................................ after.... Brendan confessed that they tried to clean up the blood from the garage with bleach....

On the car;

Think carefully and logically about this;

If it's true that the police planted forensic evidence, then they literally must have planted all the evidence - because it makes no sense how they'd just plant bits of it, they must have planted all of it in order to successfully frame and convict Avery. Because only the police would possess the required knowledge to actually pull this off, and the following must be true;
  • Teresa Halbach murdered by the police - or they arranged it.
  • Her body burnt in a burn pit and barrels outside Steven Avery's trailer (without anyone knowing) the state forensic pathologist claimed the remains were burnt in situ, so she would also be part of the framing.
  • The car moved to the junkyard and planted by the police
  • Steven Avery's blood planted on the dashboard by the police
  • Steven Avery's skin cells planted on the hood latch
  • Teresa Halbach's blood planted in the back of the Jeep
  • The bullet fragment from the garage, had DNA transferred to it and planted there by the police
  • Brendan Dassey's full confession purely occurred due to good luck
Think about it properly and put yourself in the shoes of the Jury, then consider the following;

If Steven Avery is innocent - somebody else must have murdered Halbach. It couldn't have been a random person off the street, whoever did it - wanted to frame Avery, they must have done it in a way which required very good knowledge of crime scenes, forensics, DNA and stealth - in order to pull it off without being seen or detected by anyone at any time. That's without explaining how the DNA and blood needed was actually harvested.

The only people who could do that are the police, in order to tamper the DNA evidence (the bullet) you'd need samples and a laboratory, in order to plant the evidence - you'd need to go in and out multiple times without being seen (the car, the blood, the bullet, the bones, her cell phone remains and personal items, etc)

When you resolve that down - the only possible answer is that the police murdered Halbach in order to frame Avery, nobody else could have done it - at this point, the entire conspiracy theory fails, because it's just insane.

I put it to you, that it's total folly to suggest, that Teresa went to the Avery residence - was murdered by assailants unknown, who weren't seen or heard, and left absolutely no trace whatsoever, at a time when Avery/Dassey/Family were all there - on the premises at the time, all that to happen and nobody saw a thing - it's ridiculous.

Explain the fact you have a Supreme court judge that says the interview made her "sick". That person isn't like us, they're not watching some dramatised TV show, she's probably seen hundreds of interview tapes, if not thousands. Including ones with coercion, confessions... the works. To have someone of her power, her capability, her knowledge of the law say that interview made her "sick" -- that is absolutely damning of the whole thing.

Well, the other supreme court judges disagreed - that's why they're all still in jail.

And consider this;

To claim the confession was coerced is one thing, but Brendan also confessed to his own mother on a recorded prison phone call - so are you going to claim she was also coercing him?


I do have one question that nobody has been able to provide a satisfactory answer to and I challenge you to answer it;

In Steven Avery's interview with detectives, he stated that he hadn't burnt anything that night - specifically he hadn't burnt anything for a few weeks, before Teresa Halbach came to visit;
(page 16, paragraph 3)
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...df28318735c70f/1491943339563/STEVEN+NOV+9.pdf

In a phone call between Steven Avery and Barb Janda, he explains how Brendan did come over that night, and how they had *the* bonfire that night, and Brendan was home before 9.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KYLXZcI7_0 (0:20 seconds into the video, is the specific part)

Funny how Netflix left that one out huh? If Steven Avery is so innocent - why is there a glaring, critical inconsistency in his version?
 
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Except your fire expert states quite definitively that it's impossible to burn a body in an open fire pit. I don't remember BD offering much information on the fire itself, anyway.

The fire expert wrote in his own affidavit that it IS possible to burn her in that burn pit to such a degree. He also wrote in his own affidavit that the cremains looked physically entirely consistent with what you would expect from a open field cremation like Avery had.

Experts from the first trial, Eisenberg (State) and Fairgrieve (defense) also said it could've been the primary burn location.

Within about 5mins of the car being found, everybody and their dog knew it was covered in branches and the licence plate was missing. It doesn't take a boy-genius to say "yeah we put branches over it" because that is what he saw on the news. Duh.

True he does, but many people claim that's where he got everything from. If he is innocent, he has one hell of a memory if he can remember all such things from tv and add some other things, and guess some other things right, like where in the head Halbach was shot, and which rifle was used to shoot her.

I could say I did all of that stuff. I could sit opposite two detectives and we could have a camera on me. Doesn't make any of it true though. There is absolutely zero evidence to show that she was raped, zero evidence to show that she was even in SA's bedroom (where apparently all this stuff happened). Heck even I know if you slit someone's throat and stab them in the stomach you're going to have a hard time cleaning that up. It's ludicrous to imagine two rednecks (one with mental difficulties) could (a) clear that up 100% and (b) do it so that it didn't even look like they'd cleaned it up. There is zero evidence of it happening, and zero evidence of a clean up. Hell, there's not even marks on the bed where she was supposedly tied up. Don't you think somebody tied-up, pleading for their life would make some sort of mark on the bed frame? :confused:

There is evidence of a clean-up. Dassey admitted to the cops, and repeated at trial, that he and Steven cleaned a "red fluid" from the garage floor with bleach, paint thinner and gasoline a couple of hours after TH had come over and was never seen again. Dassey's bleach stained jeans were recovered, as well as an empty bleach bottle and a nearly empty paint thinner jug. Dassey would sometimes say it was red fluid from a car that came out of a car because Steven "poked" somewhere underneath the car. Other times he would say it was actually blood. At trial he maintained it could've been blood, which is a strange thing to say for someone fighting for his freedom.

The investigators, upon first entering Steven's trailer, noted that there was bleach smell in the trailer. Steven also talked to Jodi about cleaning the trailer. There was also evidence of the bedding and a tarp being burned in the bonfire. Burning a bedding, or using a tarp, would resolve the blood issues.

I wouldn't just brush aside his confession. It's yet another piece of evidence, in a long list of evidence, that is supposedly planted, coerced, a lie, whatever.

This is easy because it's fresh in my mind. This idea was clearly planted by the detectives, they repeatedly asked BD "what did Steven then do with the car", "did he go in it", "did he open it up, maybe at the back", "where did he open it"... In the end they get annoyed and just say "did he open the hood" and BD just goes along with them. That's all. Clear and pointed coercion. Go back and watch it, that was one of the most obvious bits in the interview tape.

Why would they "plant" a confession in someone's mind? How do you even do such a thing? Why would someone do that so late in the investigation? It's a huge risk strategy and they didn't need to take such a risk anymore at that time. They found her car on his property with his blood inside it. It was game-over for SA without the confession. And why would someone from Calumet County and another from The DCI, both not from Manitowoc, frame SA? What was their motive?

Don't forget this entire series is one-way traffic. I wouldn't judge on Avery's or Dassey's guilt or innocence if MaM is your only source.

I don't think anyone would argue she wasn't there :confused:

Steven Avery told his friend and brother that Teresa hadn't shown up.
 
Soldato
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Has anyone been following this series yet?

I haven't followed that one, but I have listened to Dan O'Donnell's 'rebutting a murderer' Podcast, which is pretty good - he was a lawyer turned journalist, who sat through the whole testimony, so he certainly does have some legitimacy in talking about this. He does an episode by episode dismantling of making a murderer for both season 1 and season 2, which I think is a pretty comprehensive destruction of the narrative lies the film makers were attempting to portray.

For me the biggest thing that blew me away, was how Netflix and the film makers used creative editing techniques to alter the court testimony, this resulted in the Netflix audience seeing Andrew Colborn giving answers to questions he wasn't even asked, because the film makers were manipulating the facts to suit their conspiracy theory.

There were many incidents of creative editing and dishonest manipulation, but the one that stood out the most was surrounding the radio call Andrew Colborn made back to the police station, when he received information that there was a missing girl. He repeated the license plate of her Rav4 back to the radio operator, to check the intelligence he'd received matched what the operator had (something police officers do on patrol all the time, especially when they're looking for someone)

The defence attempted to make it look as though Andrew Colborn was in the process of planting the Rav4 on the Avery property, and the radio call he made was somehow related to that - the court testimony looked like this;

Q. Well, and you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Toyota; from listening to that tape, you can understand why someone might think that, can't you?

ATTORNEY KRATZ: It's a conclusion, Judge. He's conveying the problems to the jury.

THE COURT: I agree, the objection is sustained.

Q. This call sounded like hundreds of other license plate or registration checks you have done through dispatch before?

A. Yes.

Q. But there's no way you should have been looking at Teresa Halbach's license plate on November three, on the back end of a 1999 Toyota

ATTORNEY KRATZ: Asked and answered your honor; he already he said he didn't and was not looking at the license plate.

THE COURT: Sustained

Q. There's no way you should have been, is there?

A. I shouldn't have been and I was not looking at the license plate.

Exact same testimony and questioning shown to the Netflix audience, however it's been altered to create a conspiracy theory.

Q. Well, and you can understand how someone listening to that might think that you were calling in a license plate that you were looking at on the back end of a 1999 Toyota; from listening to that tape, you can understand why someone might think that, can't you?

A. Yes.

Q. But there's no way you should have been looking at Teresa Halbach's license plate on November three, on the back end of a 1999 Toyota

A. I shouldn't have been and I was not looking at the license plate.

[Theme music plays and the episode ends, leaving the whole thing hanging in the air]

You can find this in Making a murderer, season 1 episode 5 in the last 5 minutes.

The film makers won an Emmy for doing that, and millions of thick people on Reddit were all foaming at the mouth and baying for Colborn's blood (and his family) because they're too dumb to check anything properly.

Now the film makers and Netflix are defendants in a court case brought by Colborn (and rightly so) and I hope he cleans them out of $millions.
 
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You might want to follow it. It has revealed some interesting stuff. For example in MaM2 Zellner claims the hood latch swab containing Avery's DNA was was "completely dissimilar" to hood latch swabs from other vehicles, because it wasn't discoloured. What Zellner doesnt tell the viewer is that her expert Reich actually did receive a discoloured swab, and then washed the swab because he wanted to analyze the materials on the swab. After washing it, it was no longer discoloured.

She needs to hood latch swab to be dissimlar. If it isn't her whole groin swab relabel theory goes away.

I haven't followed Dan O'Donnell's podcast for MaM2. I tried - but unfortunately it doesn't work for me, on any computer. I was impressed with his first rebuttal which he made before all the case files became available.

You can find this in Making a murderer, season 1 episode 5 in the last 5 minutes.

I've read about this in Kratz' or Griesbach's book a while back. It's very sad and shows the film makers intentions. Now that we know they edited the documentary like that, we know we can also not trust all those shots of Colborn looking "nervous" on the stand, Dean&Jerry usually looking all smiles and relaxed in those court building hallway shots, the more nervous looking or downright tense or disappointed looking faces of Wiegert, Fassbender, Kratz or anyone from that side while someone from their side is on the stand and being questioned by Dean & Jerry.

Now the film makers and Netflix are defendants in a court case brought by Colborn (and rightly so) and I hope he cleans them out of $millions.

Hope so too, but sounds like a tough case.

Zellner watched MaM1, must've noticed how one-sided it was, must've noticed how much it has hurt the likes of Colborn and Lenk, but still decided to appear in MaM2 and make full use of it's one-sidedness.
 
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