Man hypnotises himself before op

Caporegime
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A hypnotist from West Sussex has undergone surgery on his right hand without a general anaesthetic.

Alex Lenkei, 61, from Worthing, chose to sedate himself by hypnosis before undergoing the 83-minute operation.

He said he was fully aware of everything going on around him during the procedure but was free from pain.

The operation at Worthing Hospital involved removing some bone in the base of the thumb and fusing some joints in an attempt to improve his arthritis.

Consultant orthopaedic surgeon David Llewellyn-Clark said he was happy in agreeing to the unusual sedation on Mr Lenkei, a registered hypnotist who has been practising since the age of 16.

[...]

"It took between 30 seconds to a minute for me to place myself under hypnosis, and from that point I felt a very deep relaxation.

I was aware of everything around me, from people talking and at one stage a hammer and chisel was used as well as a surgical saw, but I felt no pain."

Beeb.

Just think; if he was Russian he would have simply got drunk first. :D
 
The UK ran an excellent docco series years ago, called Your Life in Their Hands.

One of the patients was hypnotised for major surgery IIRC. Was quite eerie to watch her lying there with her eyes wide open, yet still totally oblivious to the scalpels whipping through her flesh just 40cm away.

:eek:
 
kennycraigvx4.jpg


impressive
 
Glad to see this report, iv seen people on these very forums dismiss hypnosis as a myth, its a very real and useful tool

Hypnosis is a myth, its not real and its not useful. THe mind however is very real, is an incredibly powerful tool and can be easily manipulated by the gullible, works out good for them though.

Theres still things to be learnt, "tricking" your brain into deciding not to feel pain, at the end of the day it means you can train and/or just tell your brain to not feel pain for a period of time, we just aren't trained(evolved?, smart?) enough to do so yet.

We have clearly evolved with a subconcious and concious mind, anyone thats had a dream can tell you that. Maybe we will never be able to conciously trick the mind, in theory we should be able to.


But on top of that these types of reports are very hard to believe. Some people are incredibly desensitised to pain, some people take other medication which can severly limit the amount of pain signals processed. You can have an epidural, feel nothing below whatever point you have it, but be fully concious, yet hypnosis could be used to help relax and not panic as its still a weird thing to be awake while it happens.

Not knocked out from a general asthetic doesn't mean no pain medication or any method of pain blocking used.
 
Hypnosis is a myth, its not real and its not useful. THe mind however is very real, is an incredibly powerful tool and can be easily manipulated by the gullible, works out good for them though.

So you don't think it's possible for a mind to be relaxed in to a state where it becomes easier to 'manipulate' stroke is more suggestible?
 
H
Theres still things to be learnt, "tricking" your brain into deciding not to feel pain, at the end of the day it means you can train and/or just tell your brain to not feel pain for a period of time, we just aren't trained(evolved?, smart?) enough to do so yet.

so basically your saying hypnosis isn't real yet tricking the brain is... so basically your just renaming hypnosis "tricking the brain", as thats pretty much what it's defined as :/
 
Hypnosis is very real yet not very well understood.

The most smack in your face with hypnosis was recently on tv, a woman had her front teeth extracted without any anaesthetic or pain killers. I was nearly sick watching it, yet the woman at the time rated the pain as 5/10 even when drilling down. Seemed very comfortable!
 
Hypnosis is a myth, its not real and its not useful. THe mind however is very real, is an incredibly powerful tool and can be easily manipulated by the gullible, works out good for them though.

...lots of other tripe....

Not knocked out from a general asthetic doesn't mean no pain medication or any method of pain blocking used.

You are either, as your name suggest drunk in which case this post could be forgiven for its complete lack of sense. However, if you are sober I would suggest you at least read up about a subject before you make a total idiot out of yourself.

You obviously know nothing about what hypnosis is or the methods it uses.

My fav comment:

Maybe we will never be able to conciously trick the mind, in theory we should be able to.

Yes, we can trick the mind, it's called Hypnosis.

The only false thing about hypnosis is actually the name. Hypno means sleep, the state you achieve through hypnosis only looks like sleep but your mind is very alert and open.

Hypnosis ' once called magnetism ' has been used in surgery as far back as the early 1800's in europe. There are many fascinating accounts out there, perhaps you should find some!
 
You are either, as your name suggest drunk in which case this post could be forgiven for its complete lack of sense. However, if you are sober I would suggest you at least read up about a subject before you make a total idiot out of yourself.

You obviously know nothing about what hypnosis is or the methods it uses.

My fav comment:



Yes, we can trick the mind, it's called Hypnosis.

The only false thing about hypnosis is actually the name. Hypno means sleep, the state you achieve through hypnosis only looks like sleep but your mind is very alert and open.

Hypnosis ' once called magnetism ' has been used in surgery as far back as the early 1800's in europe. There are many fascinating accounts out there, perhaps you should find some!

Hypnosis is by very design using your subconcious to trick your concious mind. Planting an idea in your subconcious to almost override what your concious mind is telling you. SO no its not conciously tricking your mind. THat would be very different. That would be the guy feeling the pain, and simply telling himself as it happened, that it doesn't hurt. As i said theoretically, it might be possible.

But as i said, theres no definitive studies. People are so weird when they claim that it works based on a few very limited occurances that completely and utterly contradict the normal experience of pain and yet they know nothing of the individuals brain chemistry whatsoever.

Do you know how many receptors that person has? what pain they've experienced in their life? what medications they've been on throughout life, what medications that aren't pain killers they may be on right then that aren't pain killers that can still do many other things to block or lessen pain or change the brain chemistry? no, none of that is even remotely mentioned.

The brain chemistry is far beyond going into detail in this thread, but everyone is potentially different.

Some people can't feel enjoyment or happyness due to lack of seretonin, or even opiates that the body can release. yes, opiates, something that can naturally be released into the body, a pain killer. What about adrenaline, what about genetic predisposition for lower nerve ending count in the roots of teeth? What about someone whose depressed, is on Prozac and at that point has an abnormally high seretonin count causing other receptors in the brain to release endorphines, or maybe activating the other receptors releasing other chemicals into the brain?

Again, all these incredibly basic articles with no fact, no testing, no indication of really anything scientific to prove it and I'm not convinced, shocking :o

I've had a root canal done, I have a high tolerance to the novacaine crap they use, it hurt as he started the same as when he gave me another 2 doses, and it was tolerable from the start. So what, I sat through it and got it finished and I didn't care that much. Everyone is different.

This guy had chronic artheritis, he's likely on various pain meds for it long term, he might be on several non pain reliving medications that may have helped for the surgery. But again, theres no info. Its another article claiming hypnosis works without a single shred of basic info on the circumstances to which it happened.

he WAS on pain meds long term at that age if it had gotten so bad that he needed an operation. What were they? IF they were opiates, did the long term heightened levels in the brain cause an abnormal reaction when he came off them for the surgery(assuming he did) causing a brain chemical reaction and the brain to flood his body with endorphines? Again, who knows, you don't, and I don't. Because none of that info is in that article.

If the same paper did a story claiming a pig flew, and offered not a shred of scientific backup then i would also have trouble believing that, as I'm sure you would also. So why believe this so readily, with not a single idea what is going on?

People still react to general anaesthsia differently. some people take a strangly higher dose to be knocked out, some people take less. Some people wake up sooner as their body reacts faster some people are opposite. Some people react to mophine and some people don't. Find a list of all the cases where hypnosis has been claimed to help, and all the times it hasn't.

You can't be certain that the few people it worked for simply weren't feeling much pain in the first place, but don't let that stop anyone from claiming it works fantastically.
 
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Hypnosis is by very design using your subconcious to trick your concious mind. Planting an idea in your subconcious to almost override what your concious mind is telling you. SO no its not conciously tricking your mind. THat would be very different. That would be the guy feeling the pain, and simply telling himself as it happened, that it doesn't hurt. As i said theoretically, it might be possible.

As stated, brain chemistry is too much for a simple thread on hypnosis and tbh its far too late for me to go drudging around trying to remember my Alevel psychology.

This guy would have been feeling them cutting him open etc, he was conciously telling himself that it wasn't hurting, so he was conciously using his subconcious to trick his conscious :D Its not like he meditated before hand and said to himself "this won't hurt", it takes constant focus throughout the entire procedure in order to keep the pain away. The whole "feeling the pain and then telling himself it doesn't hurt" kind of contradicts itself.

My main problem was with your original post:
Originally Posted by drunkenmaster
Hypnosis is a myth, its not real and its not useful.

It is not a myth at all, I agree that more scientific studies into the matter would be great, but to dismiss it entirely for no reason is just silly. People use it all over the world every day to help beat bad habits, form new good habits and to help with phobias. It has been documented over the centuries for being used for surgery including having limbs removed and childbirth etc.

You are obviously intelligent, so why dismiss something so easily?

EDIT: As for your comment regarding the hypnotist being on medication. If it was possible that he used hypnosis during the operation, it could also be possible that he never had pain killers but used hypnosis to block the pain. He could be purely having the surgery due to suffering a lack of movement in his hand. As you said yourself, we just don't have all the facts in this case.
 
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Yes, but the thing is I never see facts on these cases, which is what leads me to believe its horsecrap. Its as simple as that really.

PIgs flying style stuff gets in the papers regularly and yet I still don't believe it. Hypnotherapy seems to be being more accepted purely because more and more people try it, not because of any real studies or any evidence it works in the slightest.

Infact, while opiates and many drugs that are seen as having to be heavily controlled get very very few studies because they are looked down on for no good reason at all .. Hypnosis, being cheap to implement(if it works) and not having the whole getting you high, addicted, controlled substance stigma you would think would be very easy to get many studies done with, yet theres not anything substantial anywhere yet. Which just again adds up for me at least too, ain't nothing but smoke there.

Going on another article i found his friend/teacher/partner(wasn't clear) who "put him under" for his first op for a hernia. He said while he was under the doc cut into two specific nerves that caused really bad pain, but nothing excrutiating. WHich would again to me indicate that it doesn't block all pain, and maybe this guy only experiences very low levels of pain. Also nerve clusters aren't normally around in low numbers, for the doc to only hit 2 pain nerves seems weird, which of course doesn't prove it, but is possibly suggestive again that theres something up. Smaller number of pain nerves coupled with higher than normal adrenaline, opiates, endorphines, seretonin, something else could all account for this. Even for me if this guy was so damn serious and he had his first op done 12 years ago(i think it said 96 iirc), then no one he treats, no one else on record has done so since then for something that works great? again says to me, works for him, him only, theres a reason why.

I had my hand slamed through a glass pain and a 5-6 inch gash pretty damn deep which killed like hell, it killed for about 5 mins, then the pain completely went away. I would go with a mix of endorphines and adrenaline sorted it for me. It required 20 odd stitches and i was rushed to hospital for them as i was bleeding pretty badly. Yet even though i was 11/12 i had the stitches done without even a local. I could see it, and feel it, just feel no pain. It happens. But it happens plenty, very very often infact, without hypnosis.

If people not feeling pain when they normally would happens frequently every day by thousands, then it happens once to a guy under Hypnotherapy, occums razor, did the Hypnotherapy work or was it coincidental? All my lifes experience tells me hypnotherapy is bogus and it was coincidence that this guy did it. Had he not, I think he has something going on that would have stopped him feeling much pain anyway.
 
Hypnosis, being cheap to implement(if it works) and not having the whole getting you high, addicted, controlled substance stigma you would think would be very easy to get many studies done with, yet theres not anything substantial anywhere yet. Which just again adds up for me at least too, ain't nothing but smoke there.

That;s sort of the reason it's not researched it's only applicable to a limited number of patients,
(who would want to have to learn meditation/self hypnosis techniques then go into an op with only their "mind" stopping them from feeling the pain)
And also as it's cheap etc theres no real money to be made in it so no grants, or buissnes investment, it;s not worth the hassle.
 
Yes, but the thing is I never see facts on these cases, which is what leads me to believe its horsecrap. Its as simple as that really.

So, you have seen no evidence for hypnosis so its horsecrap, yet you have seen no evidence against hypnosis either. Surely you should be open minded enough to say "well maybe there is something in it however I would like to see some evidence either way"?


PIgs flying style stuff gets in the papers regularly and yet I still don't believe it. Hypnotherapy seems to be being more accepted purely because more and more people try it, not because of any real studies or any evidence it works in the slightest.

Why would more and more people be going to try it if it did not work?

You don't really see hypnotherapists advertising on the TV or radio, the majority of hypnosis work comes from word of mouth. You only recommend something if it worked for you.


Infact, while opiates and many drugs that are seen as having to be heavily controlled get very very few studies because they are looked down on for no good reason at all .. Hypnosis, being cheap to implement(if it works) and not having the whole getting you high, addicted, controlled substance stigma you would think would be very easy to get many studies done with, yet theres not anything substantial anywhere yet. Which just again adds up for me at least too, ain't nothing but smoke there.

I understand what you are saying, but it is only recently that hypnosis has been taken seriously by the medical profession. Plus, there is a lot more money to be made from drugs. Tefal made a very good point above about it.

Going on another article i found his friend/teacher/partner(wasn't clear) who "put him under" for his first op for a hernia. He said while he was under the doc cut into two specific nerves that caused really bad pain, but nothing excrutiating. WHich would again to me indicate that it doesn't block all pain, and maybe this guy only experiences very low levels of pain. Also nerve clusters aren't normally around in low numbers, for the doc to only hit 2 pain nerves seems weird, which of course doesn't prove it, but is possibly suggestive again that theres something up. Smaller number of pain nerves coupled with higher than normal adrenaline, opiates, endorphines, seretonin, something else could all account for this. Even for me if this guy was so damn serious and he had his first op done 12 years ago(i think it said 96 iirc), then no one he treats, no one else on record has done so since then for something that works great? again says to me, works for him, him only, theres a reason why.

Hypnosis, like any treatment has levels of success. It is dependant on many factors, as you posted earlier with brain chemical levels etc. Its not just a case of hitting a switch and a person is under.

I had my hand slamed through a glass pain and a 5-6 inch gash pretty damn deep which killed like hell, it killed for about 5 mins, then the pain completely went away. I would go with a mix of endorphines and adrenaline sorted it for me. It required 20 odd stitches and i was rushed to hospital for them as i was bleeding pretty badly. Yet even though i was 11/12 i had the stitches done without even a local. I could see it, and feel it, just feel no pain. It happens. But it happens plenty, very very often infact, without hypnosis.

If people not feeling pain when they normally would happens frequently every day by thousands, then it happens once to a guy under Hypnotherapy, occums razor, did the Hypnotherapy work or was it coincidental? All my lifes experience tells me hypnotherapy is bogus and it was coincidence that this guy did it. Had he not, I think he has something going on that would have stopped him feeling much pain anyway.

Actually, I was always under the impression that any cut needing stitches usually cuts the nerves which results in a distinct lack of pain after the initial burst anyway. I know when I was slashed with a knife it hurt initially, well, after I felt blood run down my leg and I knew I had been cut.

There are stories of soldiers being shot in combat and not even knowing. Now that is adrenaline. I understand your point of view that there are many things that it could be, I am just asking that you keep an open mind about other things as well.
 
More people go and see psychics, I would never believe in them either. People look for things to help, hypnosis is a tool, as is a nicotine patch, a training partnet at the gym. A motivational tool will often help you out no matter what that tool is. If you want to stop being afraid of heights, go and see a hypno and tell yourself it can work, you use it as an excuse to get on a plane and then realise theres nothing to it. But tell your friends it was the hypno not the motivation to do it.

I have no evidence pigs can't fly, i haven't seen it, maybe they do it when no ones looking, however i choose not to believe it. Disproving something is incredibly hard, especially as there will never, EVER be really any impiricle evidence that would prove hypnotherapy to work or not work. But I've yet to see anything , not a single case of hypnotherapy where there was even decently controlled circumstances or anything but the very very barest of information.

Surely this guy, if he had a operation 12 years ago, would be shouting about it from the rooftops and proving it to so many people, being its his job, that ONE of them would have done the same and had a operation under hypnosis. But 12 years later and its the same guy again, who said he felt pain the first time. THen the woman who had stuff done at the dentist, but felt quite bad pain anyway, just not that bad? These being some of the most talked about cases it doesn't bode well.

Then the real cynical part of me would maybe say, surely he has a lot to gain by claiming it works?

Like i said, thousands of people manage to survive what would seem to be massive amounts of pain to do something, and claim it never even hurt. Then 3 of those guys claim they also had hypnotherapy. AS i said, in any other situation I would assume that was coincidence and nothing else.

For me, there could be dozens, maybe hundreds of reasons to explain the lack of pain(if there wasn't any), and just because he says its the Hypnotherapy doesn't mean it was.
 
I think it is one of them things that only works if you believe it can work.

For example, there is no way in hell some fool waving something in front of my face is going to make me believe I can go through surgery without drugs, so the chances are it wouldn't work for me!

I've actually been hypnotised twice myself, once in a pub and once in a private sitting. It didn't have any effect on me what so ever either time. My Mum, however, is a believer in all kinds of strange crap and it did have an effect on her. We had her acting like a chicken and all the rest of it. :p

Even so, it is impressive something so simple can work so effectively on some people. Quite scary even! Just shows you the true power of, or our lack of control over, the human brain. It is certainly a tool that should not be ignored.
 
It's amazing how many people equate 'not fully understood' with 'not true'...

It's even funnier watching them come up with ever more convaluted, unprovable explainations for things that they try to claim are more rational, even though they are also not fully understood... At least no-one's shouted 'It's a placebo!' yet...
 
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