Man opens fire on Dutch tram, several hurt

[Psycho Sonny]

Yes, and war is different to acts of terrorism against civilians. Armies clashing isn't the same as a random person blowing themselves up or stabbing people.

Plenty of Muslim travelers went to non-muslim lands and lives without issue. Did they not understand Islam but the kids today do?

When did they start coming here in droves though? They have been here less than 100 years in large numbers where now you have mosques everywhere. how many mosques was there in britain in the 1940's?

those that came here originally in small numbers focused on work. then as more came over they kept reminding them of who they were and to focus on religion. then you start to see mosques appear more of them regressing back into the ways of the old country. then the teachings of how they are the ones with "the truth" and now you see lots of westeners being converted, a lot of the fighters in syria were/are converts. as more of them come over and more of them congregate in larger numbers they now have the numbers to do what they like.

do you think a group of say 10 white caucasians turn up in saudi arabia would be able to start causing trouble? no but what if 10 thousand turn up? or 100,000 or 1 million?

so that is why there was no issues here before. they didn't have the numbers or the organisation. they were scattered. they now have whole communities here where there religion can thrive.

in smaller numbers they focused on work and living rather than the religion. the majority who are the nice ones don't follow the religion properly. they are essentially hypocrites but they would never say so themselves or say they follow a moderate version of it. they pick and choose when they are muslim to suit themselves.

a bit like yaya toure not accepting a bottle of champagne for his man of the match performance only to be found guilty of drink driving later.

 

[Yadda]

My point is this conflict has gone on for generations, it's just evolved from meeting on the battlefield on horseback. One wants the other to adopt its belief system. Humanity and technology as a whole has advanced to the point where this type of conflict is not possible anymore.

Thankfully we have a majority of moderates on both sides. We'll always have a minority of idiots who lust for blood but in my view they will remain a minority, despite all of the noise they make.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

Thankfully we have a majority of moderates on both sides. We'll always have a minority of idiots who lust for blood but in my view they will remain a minority, despite all of the noise they make.

Trouble is these minorities cause restrictions in the rights and freedoms of the majority of people. Which causes tension and resentment, then suddenly you wake up in a world where you can have a criminal record for posting rap lyrics on Facebook of a song you can buy in a shop or Amazon. Not being able to openly discuss issues in all areas of society is crippling democracy and fuelling extremism on all sides.

 

[Yadda]

Trouble is these minorities cause restrictions in the rights and freedoms of the majority of people. Which causes tension and resentment, then suddenly you wake up in a world where you can have a criminal record for posting rap lyrics on Facebook of a song you can buy in a shop or Amazon. Not being able to openly discuss issues in all areas of society is crippling democracy and fuelling extremism on all sides.

Most of us manage just fine.

 

[Raz]

My point is this conflict has gone on for generations, it's just evolved from meeting on the battlefield on horseback. One wants the other to adopt its belief system. Humanity and technology as a whole has advanced to the point where this type of conflict is not possible anymore.

My point however is that there's more to this than just Islam - international politics has shifted things significantly, and even though technology has created a form of global cohesion between nations there's also a number of factors that portray the West as trouble makers, particularly Britain and the US and their humanatarian intervention.

Does that make Islam, and Muslims innocent? No. There are verses which clearly promote violence towards non-Muslims. Yes, there is context to those verses but that's a longer discussion.

 

[Greebo]

Let’s hope this is as bad as it gets with revenge attacks.

I doubt it. I am sure they will be more attacks on the back of NZ and then more right wing attacks back and then more back. Look how NI went.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

My point however is that there's more to this than just Islam - international politics has shifted things significantly, and even though technology has created a form of global cohesion between nations there's also a number of factors that portray the West as trouble makers, particularly Britain and the US and their humanatarian intervention.

Does that make Islam, and Muslims innocent? No. There are verses which clearly promote violence towards non-Muslims. Yes, there is context to those verses but that's a longer discussion.

I'd like to know the context where rape is okay? Also forced marriages and again rape of your newly forced wife.

 

[The Geezer]

I doubt it. I am sure they will be more attacks on the back of NZ and then more right wing attacks back and then more back. Look how NI went.

How depressing - stop the world I want to get off

 

[Deleted member 77746]

How depressing - stop the world I want to get off

 

[Raz]

I'd like to know the context where rape is okay? Also forced marriages and again rape of your newly forced wife.

I'm sure you would but I didn't mention rape, or forced marriage.

What I did mention is that there are verses about killing/fighting non-Muslims. Those do actually have context, but that doesn't mean they're right, just in case you think I agree or support them.

 

[The Geezer]

They don't follow it as literally.

If you have a religious book saying it's okay to do this and that. Some will do it even though they know it's wrong under the name of religion. Especially a religion which forces you to pray 5 times a day in a specific direction, forces you to fast / starve yourself every year for a month, etc, etc. A religion with that many rules (halal meat, wearing of burka's) is pretty extreme so then you have more extremists who follow everything literally including all the bad stuff in it.

You then have these people come out and say there is nothing bad in the book they are mis translating it, etc which is a load of bull. They need to draw a line which a lot of their religious leaders will never do as then it would be going against their faith and the word of god. Basically they would need to denounce the fact their religion is the word of god (therefore not real).

So you have a majority which don't really follow it properly but still call themselves muslims. It's why they have so manys sects too. As branches of it have split off with different views as they cannot agree with everything written in it.

When did they start coming here in droves though? They have been here less than 100 years in large numbers where now you have mosques everywhere. how many mosques was there in britain in the 1940's?

those that came here originally in small numbers focused on work. then as more came over they kept reminding them of who they were and to focus on religion. then you start to see mosques appear more of them regressing back into the ways of the old country. then the teachings of how they are the ones with "the truth" and now you see lots of westeners being converted, a lot of the fighters in syria were/are converts. as more of them come over and more of them congregate in larger numbers they now have the numbers to do what they like.

do you think a group of say 10 white caucasians turn up in saudi arabia would be able to start causing trouble? no but what if 10 thousand turn up? or 100,000 or 1 million?

so that is why there was no issues here before. they didn't have the numbers or the organisation. they were scattered. they now have whole communities here where there religion can thrive.

in smaller numbers they focused on work and living rather than the religion. the majority who are the nice ones don't follow the religion properly. they are essentially hypocrites but they would never say so themselves or say they follow a moderate version of it. they pick and choose when they are muslim to suit themselves.

a bit like yaya toure not accepting a bottle of champagne for his man of the match performance only to be found guilty of drink driving later.

Look it's the likes of ISIS, Boka Haram, Taliban with their version of Islam which are the problem think about it, these clowns invade other muslim countries and force their version of Islam onto them. It's based on Salafism if I'm correct a harsh non-compromising version of Islam. As someone has already pointed out 1.8 billion don't subscribe to that version hence why we are not at war or live in real fear.

 

[Sankari]

Muslims and Christian's have been waging war against each other across Europe/Africa/ME for a thousand years or more though.

Definitely not thousands of years. Islam is less than 1500 years old. It's the youngest of the five great faiths.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Look it's the likes of ISIS, Boka Haram, Taliban with their version of Islam which are the problem think about it, these clowns invade other muslim countries and force their version of Islam onto them. It's based on Salafism if I'm correct a harsh non-compromising version of Islam. As someone has already pointed out 1.8 billion don't subscribe to that version hence why we are not at war or live in real fear.

it's not their version of islam though. islam has that stuff in the 1 book they all follow. some just choose to ignore that part of it.

 

[Lord-Jaffa]

Most of us manage just fine.

Great, apathy is the last virtue of a dying society.

If you want to be an ignorant fool while your civil rights are chipped away at over the years, don't bother commenting.

 

[Diddums]

Great, apathy is the last virtue of a dying society.

If you want to be an ignorant fool while your civil rights are chipped away at over the years, don't bother commenting.

Why not? Do you prefer everyone just shut up and agree with you?

 

[Buddy]

it's not their version of islam though. islam has that stuff in the 1 book they all follow. some just choose to ignore that part of it.

Are you just making stuff up as you go along?

Try learning the difference the between Quran and Hadith. Then learn about how hadith are authenticated.

Power hungry humans who wanted to take advantage of the "umma" after the Prophet's death made up thousands and destroyed thousands to push their version through.

What do all these terrorist groups and Saudi have in common? What is the internal War at the moment? I can tell you its not Sunni vs Shia. Its Sunni/Shia vs Wahhabism.

 

[The Geezer]

it's not their version of islam though. islam has that stuff in the 1 book they all follow. some just choose to ignore that part of it.

That's a simple analogy, we in the West ignore the Old Testament (not that I'm religious) the fire and brimstone stuff and cite the Bible when Jesus arrived. So it's good that parts of the Koran is ignored by the moderates, isn't that what is needed ?

You do recall the last census where 60% of the UK identified as Christians however we have the lowest church attendance figures around, it's just going to take Islam little more time to get there after all we have a few hundred years head start.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Are you just making stuff up as you go along?

Try learning the difference the between Quran and Hadith. Then learn about how hadith are authenticated.

Power hungry humans who wanted to take advantage of the "umma" after the Prophet's death made up thousands and destroyed thousands to push their version through.

What do all these terrorist groups and Saudi have in common? What is the internal War at the moment? I can tell you its not Sunni vs Shia. Its Sunni/Shia vs Wahhabism.

Yet it's Sunni's (islamic state) raping Yazidi's? Yet you say it's Wahhabism that is the issue. When all sects follow the same hate filled religion just in slightly different ways.

 

[VincentHanna]

I don't think Islam has the monopoly on rape as a tool of war/fear/control, sadly.

 

[RaohNS]

Yet it's Sunni's (islamic state) raping Yazidi's? Yet you say it's Wahhabism that is the issue. When all sects follow the same hate filled religion just in slightly different ways.

It depends. Some scholars advocate Islam changing. Having read the Koran/Qur'an I can say there are some very... Dangerous verses and lots of references to the unbelievers home being the fire.

The problem is Islam is the unalterable word of God.