You still have to pay for that plumber and everyone in the chain between the plumber and the tenant will be adding margin. I'm about to start renting mine out - will be haggling the agent down to 7 or 8% and then accepting there will be margins on top.
Managing a rental yourself?
- Thread starter R.O.S.S.I
- Start date
Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
Hobbyist landlord has property rented out - property is worth £20k to give you some idea of the dump of a place it is in; hobbyist landlord can't afford to sell as they bought it at £60k. Hobbyist landlord is offended that the occupants don't pay rent, yet for some reason returned £50 of their rent when they pleaded for money for food (short on benefits that month).
Hobbyist landlord gets email that boiler is broken, hobbyist landlord says he will come with engineer; tenant says **** off that's not on, its COVID era blah blah. Anyway, he ends up getting paid his rent but still wants to evict these pretty scummy tenants despite the fact he is getting paid his dues. Professional landlords try and educate hobbyist landlord that as long as folk are paying their bills, scum tenants are tenants and not to worry.
Basically hobbyist landlords are pushovers and struggle with the basics and should simply outsource the lot.
I don't believe the issue is cost, it's time.
Speaking with one of my clients recently and their rental manager spent half of Christmas day sourcing an emergency repair of an oven for one of the properties they manage. If you're happy risking your personal time then it's absolutely fine, but don't underestimate the faff involved at short notice with properties.
One of my tenants managed to set fire to the kitchen at 7pm on a Sunday night on a house that wasn't managed at the time, that was a fun evening. You can guarantee it will be the most inconvenient time that a problem occurs!
Yeah, our boiler broke at 10pm one night and we contacted the landlord - cue weeks of issues that he had to give us compensation for in the end.
Seriously, OP should not manage it himself if he wants peace of mind. Before this new landlord bought our place the previous landlord's management was taken care of by Winkworth. We never even spoke to the landlord. They were literally names on a page to us.
If you do, make sure you know what your responsibilities are. Only rented once direct from the landlord (others through agents) and the guy was a nightmare.
Really should have to do some sort of exam before becoming a landlord in this country to test their knowledge of what their responsibilities to the tenant are.
Really should have to do some sort of exam before becoming a landlord in this country to test their knowledge of what their responsibilities to the tenant are.
We've had fully managed on a property for the past few years but found them pretty useless and not value for money.
They were slow at passing info between the tenants and us, with constant chasing needed and when it came to fixing issues, prices were astronomical. Whether this was the trade putting up their prices or the EA taking a cut (when they're not supposed in the fully managed contract) I don't know.
We would end up sourcing a trades person to do it at half the cost or I would attend and do it myself.
An example - supply and slot in one standard fence panel (literally a 30 second job plus a bit of travelling time) - £150.
Own enquiry with fencing company was £65. Did it myself for £27.
We're considering managing it ourselves now we're more clued in on landlord obligations and just get the rental insurance which is around £35pm for us I think.
They were slow at passing info between the tenants and us, with constant chasing needed and when it came to fixing issues, prices were astronomical. Whether this was the trade putting up their prices or the EA taking a cut (when they're not supposed in the fully managed contract) I don't know.
We would end up sourcing a trades person to do it at half the cost or I would attend and do it myself.
An example - supply and slot in one standard fence panel (literally a 30 second job plus a bit of travelling time) - £150.
Own enquiry with fencing company was £65. Did it myself for £27.
We're considering managing it ourselves now we're more clued in on landlord obligations and just get the rental insurance which is around £35pm for us I think.
All of this!
I had one call me to report a drain that had been blocked for 2 weeks on Christmas Eve…
Being called with issues on holidays….
The 10% is well worth it.
that's what the agents want you to think.
Managing 1 property isn’t difficult as long as you’ve got a decent tenant in.
Its when you have a small portfolio and try to take it on around a full time job. It’s very difficult, especially if you’ve got a couple of late payers.
I’d say having an agent has been working for you quite well, and because it’s working you may as well stick to it. Shop around and see if there are any agents who take a lower % of fee.
Its when you have a small portfolio and try to take it on around a full time job. It’s very difficult, especially if you’ve got a couple of late payers.
I’d say having an agent has been working for you quite well, and because it’s working you may as well stick to it. Shop around and see if there are any agents who take a lower % of fee.
Worth checking your contract with letting agency to see whether you'd even save any money if you managed it yourself - they often have clauses that mean they continue to get paid or are due a large one time fee if you fire them but continue with a tenant they placed.
Best time to think about switching to self managed is probably when you need a new tenant.
Completely depends on circumstance - the type of property and area is obviously going to affect the type of tenants you get, you're not going to get housing benefits/universal credit people in some expensive Central London or Canary Wharf flat as their benefits won't cover it. You'll get professionals and you'll do background checks or get a third party company to do so.
I rented for several years after first moving to London, maybe spoke to the landlord twice or three times a year during that time, obvs there was the annual gas inspection byond that it was just minor stuff.
The obvious thing to do from the landlord's pov was to have a handyman that you use for various things, both a landlord during student days and the landlord when first working in London had an odd job guy who would pop round and fix stuff if needed. Sometimes I'd fix basic stuff, things like a new shower head etc.. would ask for a new one, the landlord approved it and I'd just buy one and send him an invoice/knock the cost of it it off the rent for that month.
Likewise, if you buy a 3 bedroom terraced property in a student area in some northern city and you kit it out with cheap but robust carpets, convert the attic + one of the downstairs reception rooms to a bedroom and fit a single bed + computer desk in each bedroom then rent it out as a 5 bedroom property guess who your prospective tenants will be.
If you've got a particularly desirable student property then maybe you get their parents to act as guarantors, either way, you'll probably make them jointly liable, if one of them drops out then they need to find another and/or still ensure the monthly rent is covered and their mate or their mate's parents still pay them.
Yeah, that's what I'd worry about, I reckon as an individual landlord you could probably put in more effort into vetting than an agency does, particularly things like references from previous landlord etc..
The thing is how do you know you've got a "good" one - it doesn't seem to be a regulated profession and it's letting agents rather than individual landlords who have managed to get in trouble over the "no DSS" thing in court.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07008/
I remember there was a sting by some journalists too where they posed as a landlord and told the letting agents they didn't want any black people, a bunch of letting agencies didn't bat an eyelid.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24372509
I suspect that it's not too hard to avoid tenants on benefits, if people are going to do blatantly silly things like individual landlords sticking "no DSS" in an advert or letting agents literally telling a tenant a property isn't for them because they're on UC/housing benefit then...
I guess if you're a landlord buying a very cheap property in a very cheap area and it's not a student area then you're going to have to anticipate that you likely will be dealing with people on benefits and act accordingly - in that case perhaps a managing agency is useful.
I think you're right to point out that time is a big factor in some circumstances, the yield might suck when it comes to more expensive properties but they're lower risk for that sort of stuff.
Some of the high yield slumlord-type properties (and in some cases perhaps student properties too) are probably best left to the full-time or semi-professional landlords, developers etc.. who live locally and have time to manage them. A couple of dozen cheapo properties in some cheap area of Manchester/Liverpool/[insert northern city] is probably a near full-time job in itself. In fact, anyone who has built up a serious BTL portfolio themselves and is managing it full-time probs has local handymen etc.. on call and is missing a trick if they don't then set themselves up as a managing agency for other landlords.
That's what one of my mates ended up doing up north, he started as a student and kinda decided getting a job wasn't for him, he's now the owner of a bunch of student properties and some other cheapo local ones and acts as a managing agent for a bunch more local landlords. Suits him as he's not in his mind doing any "work" per se rather he takes calls and then dispatches one of his guys to go fix stuff or calls one of the local electricians, plumbers etc..
He's done it for years now so doesn't take any nonsense - he once refused to give back most of a deposit after a house was left in a poor state, had a female law student write a lengthy e-mail to him about how they were going to appeal etc.. he sent back photos of the half dozen used condoms they'd found down the side of her bed when inspecting the property, told her he was happy to forward on to her parents or send as evidence if she fancied appealing etc.. she quickly backed down.
I rented for several years after first moving to London, maybe spoke to the landlord twice or three times a year during that time, obvs there was the annual gas inspection byond that it was just minor stuff.
The obvious thing to do from the landlord's pov was to have a handyman that you use for various things, both a landlord during student days and the landlord when first working in London had an odd job guy who would pop round and fix stuff if needed. Sometimes I'd fix basic stuff, things like a new shower head etc.. would ask for a new one, the landlord approved it and I'd just buy one and send him an invoice/knock the cost of it it off the rent for that month.
Likewise, if you buy a 3 bedroom terraced property in a student area in some northern city and you kit it out with cheap but robust carpets, convert the attic + one of the downstairs reception rooms to a bedroom and fit a single bed + computer desk in each bedroom then rent it out as a 5 bedroom property guess who your prospective tenants will be.
If you've got a particularly desirable student property then maybe you get their parents to act as guarantors, either way, you'll probably make them jointly liable, if one of them drops out then they need to find another and/or still ensure the monthly rent is covered and their mate or their mate's parents still pay them.
Yeah, that's what I'd worry about, I reckon as an individual landlord you could probably put in more effort into vetting than an agency does, particularly things like references from previous landlord etc..
The thing is how do you know you've got a "good" one - it doesn't seem to be a regulated profession and it's letting agents rather than individual landlords who have managed to get in trouble over the "no DSS" thing in court.
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/sn07008/
I remember there was a sting by some journalists too where they posed as a landlord and told the letting agents they didn't want any black people, a bunch of letting agencies didn't bat an eyelid.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24372509
I suspect that it's not too hard to avoid tenants on benefits, if people are going to do blatantly silly things like individual landlords sticking "no DSS" in an advert or letting agents literally telling a tenant a property isn't for them because they're on UC/housing benefit then...
I guess if you're a landlord buying a very cheap property in a very cheap area and it's not a student area then you're going to have to anticipate that you likely will be dealing with people on benefits and act accordingly - in that case perhaps a managing agency is useful.
I think you're right to point out that time is a big factor in some circumstances, the yield might suck when it comes to more expensive properties but they're lower risk for that sort of stuff.
Some of the high yield slumlord-type properties (and in some cases perhaps student properties too) are probably best left to the full-time or semi-professional landlords, developers etc.. who live locally and have time to manage them. A couple of dozen cheapo properties in some cheap area of Manchester/Liverpool/[insert northern city] is probably a near full-time job in itself. In fact, anyone who has built up a serious BTL portfolio themselves and is managing it full-time probs has local handymen etc.. on call and is missing a trick if they don't then set themselves up as a managing agency for other landlords.
That's what one of my mates ended up doing up north, he started as a student and kinda decided getting a job wasn't for him, he's now the owner of a bunch of student properties and some other cheapo local ones and acts as a managing agent for a bunch more local landlords. Suits him as he's not in his mind doing any "work" per se rather he takes calls and then dispatches one of his guys to go fix stuff or calls one of the local electricians, plumbers etc..
He's done it for years now so doesn't take any nonsense - he once refused to give back most of a deposit after a house was left in a poor state, had a female law student write a lengthy e-mail to him about how they were going to appeal etc.. he sent back photos of the half dozen used condoms they'd found down the side of her bed when inspecting the property, told her he was happy to forward on to her parents or send as evidence if she fancied appealing etc.. she quickly backed down.
Exactly.
Did it several years ago after a relationship breakdown to cover the mortgage while we tried to sell (took a long time, was around the lending scandal period where prices dropped and mortgages were harder to get).
Was fine when there was a good tenant.
But there times you'd get called or messaged in the small hours of the morning for plumbing issues or the building alarm going off for no reason (try finding an alarm company at 2am to help by the way...).
Was also a major hassle trying to deal with when some tenants left the place in a right state, bug infestation etc while working full time.
So depends what you're willing to put up with and how much time you can give to it. Personally I'd never do it again.
Soldato
- Joined
- 7 Jan 2009
- Posts
- 6,660
To be honest, I would NOT rent a property knowing the landlord is solely dealing with everything himself if there should be any issues, I know quite a few people who rent private and it doesn't go through a letting agent and they can't get anything done when it comes to repairs or issues simply because the landlord is only intrested in getting his rent.
I know not all landlords are like that so don't take it the wrong way but just getting my point across.
With the extortionate rents these days, is 10% really going to hurt your pockets?
I know not all landlords are like that so don't take it the wrong way but just getting my point across.
With the extortionate rents these days, is 10% really going to hurt your pockets?
Soldato
- Joined
- 9 Jun 2005
- Posts
- 4,698
- Location
- Wiltshire
Pretty easy to ask a questions to find out though.... for eg: "do you wear tracky bottoms all the time and hang around town centres making the place look ****"?
Greed, thats why.
that happens either way though. we report stuff to our agent (okay they're useless) but it also then takes our LL forever to approve any works.
I'll give a short breakdown of my experiences having lived with agent/landlord-managed properties from a tenant's perspective.
Landlord-managed:
Threw us out after 10 months because they wanted the flat for their sister
Another flat developed a fault with electrics, electrician couldn't source the issue, so the landlord threw us out and sold the flat
Another flat developed an issue with boiler, new boiler had to be put in, electrician flooded the hallway, wired the boiler up dangerously, failed to put a limescale limiter on, never answered his phone, landlord paid a huge amount for the work and had to pay us compensation for the inconvenience
Agent-managed:
Always answered their phone
Workmen came promptly whenever there was an issue
As a landlord you need to remember if you engage an agent you're effectively entering into a B2B transaction with a supplier, and you need to do your own due diligence. Agents aren't there to do what you tell them to do, they're there to deal with issues both time and legislation related. So what you should do is ask questions, and you've already identified a couple of good examples both of which would indicate the agent is crap if they agree to do it. Other things you could ask are:
- How often are letting agreements reviewed?
- When was the last time your agreement was updated?
- Do you have a preferred list of suppliers?
- Who's on the preferred list?
- Will you deal with my preferred list?
- What is your committed response time to tenants?
- What's your policy if I don't respond?
- How often will you chase me?
- What can you do to mitigate risk if a tenant is on benefits?
- What's their process for evicting tenants?
You can create a scenario which people on UC are likely to fail and not mention UC once.