Manual

acemastr said:
Not sure my 268bhp 2l turbo car is small engined at all.
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It's not, which is why the application of a CVT in this car is unusual. It would sound like a car better suited to a DSG style box but probably robbed of one because Subaru don't have one they can use?

Hence this is a high torque CVT gearbox. You simply don't know what you're talking about when it comes to this.
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I've asked you several times now what you are comparing it with to decide its so good but all you do is just tell me how I 'don't know what I am talking about' which really doesn't further the discussion very much. Given you tell us how smoothly it shifts gears I'd suggest it's you that are not sure what you are talking about. It's a CVT, it doesn't shift gears, any 'gear shifting' is simulated to make it feel more 'normal'.

I don't doubt it's about as good as a CVT gets. But that wasn't your point..

Some interesting comments on the WRX CVT:

driving.ca said:
Well, for starters, the automatic WRX is slower in the zero to 100 km/h race than the stick version; at 6.4 seconds, a half-second slower. And while for the most part, Subaru’s Sport Lineartronic CVT acts like a regular torque converter transmission, its actions are less precise than the manual WRX when pressed upon.

Even when using the Subaru Intelligent Drive (or SI-DRIVE) system’s full-on Sport Sharp setting (where the CVT holds revs longer for improved power delivery) the CVT seemed to hesitate. Combined with the Subaru flat-four engine’s slight turbo lag, the WRX’s CVT always felt like a dance partner that was one step behind the beat.

At the end of our 60-day tenure in the Subie, we saw the CVT as an indication of the maturation of the WRX.
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I like heel toeing, downshift rev matching and all that sort of stuff. the sort of interaction with the car that makes you feel you are getting the very best out of it is what appeals to me about driving.

but then I drive at weekends and if I commuted then an auto would probably be cool too. If I was in the market for something seriously quick then I would always take a manual if it was on offer.

I don't get to drive very often so I like to feel like I'm doing something when I do.
 
It's far better than the automatic gearbox in my dad's Mercedes C250, smoother, more direct.

It does have simulated gears, to enable the driver to change the engine revs when needed by using preset pulley sizes and distances.
 
acemastr said:
It's far better than the automatic gearbox in my dad's Mercedes C250, smoother, more direct.
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To be fair thats a 12 year old transmission now and not exactly cutting edge. That said I had it in an E Class last month and it didn't appear unsmooth, but it certainly wasn't quick shifting in manual mode but then I don't think that was ever the intention.
 
rjk said:
I like heel toeing, downshift rev matching and all that sort of stuff. the sort of interaction with the car that makes you feel you are getting the very best out of it is what appeals to me about driving.

but then I drive at weekends and if I commuted then an auto would probably be cool too. If I was in the market for something seriously quick then I would always take a manual if it was on offer.

I don't get to drive very often so I like to feel like I'm doing something when I do.
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It is interesting that some people directly conflate actions specifically needed to work around the mechanical deficiencies inherent to a manual gearbox with "maximising performance".

You're concentrating on a factor that has bearing on track (because those techniques are really only essential at the edge of the performance envelope and so generally are unnecessary on the road without taking big, big risks) because it overcomes some fairly nasty traits. On the road, road positioning, corner speed judgement and risk perception are far more worthy uses of your brain's processing power.

DSG/PDK/DCT are all fantastic for removing all of that wasted effort entirely and allows you to get the very best out of the car where it matters by automating something that is difficult to master. This is fundamentally why all ultra-high performance cars do not have manual transmissions any more.

Yes, it feels a lot less 'banzai' but you can be much, much more focussed on the rest which leads to a faster and (probably) safer drive.

My issue with the more traditional automatics is that they don't offer the control you need at the limit - driving a torque converter automatic hard can be frustrating because you lack that fine control/response and a degree of what I can only call "certainty" that you get from a manual or clutch-type auto.
 
Which is why I say that it makes you feel you're getting the best out of it. It's the experience of driving like that which I enjoy. An interaction which, when practiced a little is rewarding. I mean, I wouldn't be driving down an A road doing it, more likely on a 6am Sunday morning run with nobody around, but that is precisely when I do my driving. I am fortunate enough to have relatively minimal interaction with other road users compared to most on here.

As I mentioned. If I was to drive more or or even drive on a daily basis then an auto would have course be a consideration, but for my personal useage requirement, a manual is fine, fun and my own preference.
 
[TW]Fox;28952345 said:
You're probably not getting the best out of it is his point. If you are, new career as racing driver surely beckons.
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But if you 'feel' as if you are and you 'feel' more engaged then for some of us that's part of the joy of driving.

Sure hitting the apex and the right lines and getting on the power at the right time is more important potentially for being fast, but does it make it more enjoyable? That's entirely subjective.

I peso personally prefer knowing I've nailed the gear changes and all the other factors to the best of my abilities to make me feel like I'm 'in tunr' with the car. I'm sure I would be faster round a track in an identical car with a modern dual clutch auto but it's not always just about the speed but about the enjoyment.

For some people myself included this involves being involved in the gear change.
 
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy changing gear too. There isn't much as satisfying as hitting the right gear as you power out of a nice bend. It's great fun. Nobody can dispute this.

But whilst there isn't anything quite as fun as nailing a perfect change out of a wonderful bend there isn't anything quite as tedious as sitting in a queue of traffic clutch in clutch out clutch in clutch out and unless you walk to work and have a Cayman S in the garage you'll be feeling the rage of that many times more than you'll feel the joy of the right gearshift.

Which is why I'm now completely sold on a good automatic. I resisted for so long, as I am sure you will remember - I spent months looking for a manual 530i. Then I spent months looking for a manual 335i. This is because frankly the plus-points of autoboxes at that point were, IMHO, still over-shadowed by the negative points - less satisfying manual change, reliability concerns, increased fuel economy, etc.

Now I have an automatic and I have even let a 535i pass me by because it had a manual gearbox. How things change.

The other great thing a good automatic does is get rid of 75% of what makes a diesel so crap. There is no experience in driving more joyless than changing gear yourself on a diesel powered car. Simply awful. There is no thrill of nailing the right gear, there is a constant frustration as you battle with the pittiful powerband to keep the stupid thing in the power zone. I hate manual boxes with diesel engined cars so much I even pay more for hire cars to make sure they are auto.
 
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[TW]Fox;28952437 said:
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy changing gear too. There isn't much as satisfying as hitting the right gear as you power out of a nice bend. It's great fun. Nobody can dispute this.

But whilst there isn't anything quite as fun as nailing a perfect change out of a wonderful bend there isn't anything quite as tedious as sitting in a queue of traffic clutch in clutch out clutch in clutch out and unless you walk to work and have a Cayman S in the garage you'll be feeling the rage of that many times more than you'll feel the joy of the right gearshift.

Which is why I'm now completely sold on a good automatic. I resisted for so long, as I am sure you will remember - I spent months looking for a manual 530i. Then I spent months looking for a manual 335i. This is because frankly the plus-points of autoboxes at that point were, IMHO, still over-shadowed by the negative points - less satisfying manual change, reliability concerns, increased fuel economy, etc.

Now I have an automatic and I have even let a 535i pass me by because it had a manual gearbox. How things change.

The other great thing a good automatic does is get rid of 75% of what makes a diesel so crap. There is no experience in driving more joyless than changing gear yourself on a diesel powered car. Simply awful. There is no thrill of nailing the right gear, there is a constant frustration as you battle with the pittiful powerband to keep the stupid thing in the power zone. I hate manual boxes with diesel engined cars so much I even pay more for hire cars to make sure they are auto.
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I agree it can be tedious, especially with a dodgy clutch with play in the pedal but that's another story. However I think it's worth it at the end of the day, mind you next year I have a commute that isn't very far but is constant stop start, waiting at T junctions and etc. Maybe my view on preferring manual to automatic will change in due course.
 
I find manuals more involving and entertaining.

The last auto I had was decent, fast and easy to drive. Did I find it fun...... No. So I chopped it in a few months later for something 10 times more enjoyable.... It just happened to have a manual box.
 
If you need to ask why you would bother buying manual then I don't think you'll ever be convinced.

The X5 was the first auto for me after 2 manuals and I never thought I'd go back to a manual. Borrowed an S reg 1.25 fiesta zetec (manual) when it was in for MOT and the enjoyment of a manual car came back. It's just so much more involving. Wouldn't switch the manual in the VX220 for automatic in a million years, I'm quite happy to drive in my 80-90s world with the weekend/sunny day car with a huge grin!

Had a quick drive of my fathers morgan plus 4 and that's the same. The manual gearbox is part of the reason to want one.
 
I wonder how many people here can heel toe properly, at pace? When you can I think that adds to the whole experience, hence my point about coming down the box rather than just changing gear. If you are going properly quickly it's great to hook all that up with braking, steering, changing etc, makes for a more immersive experience. Would I crave that in my 5 series, nah. Would I miss it in a PDK GT3, hell yes, most of the time I suspect.
 
Housey said:
I wonder how many people here can heel toe properly, at pace? When you can I think that adds to the whole experience, hence my point about coming down the box rather than just changing gear. If you are going properly quickly it's great to hook all that up with braking, steering, changing etc, makes for a more immersive experience. Would I crave that in my 5 series, nah. Would I miss it in a PDK GT3, hell yes, most of the time I suspect.
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I can't, but would like to be able to. I can pull off a heel toe downshift from 4th - 3rd quite nicely, but that's pretty easy.
I've never been able to do 3rd - 2nd, probably the most important one, without jerking the car on the brakes too much.
 
Conscript said:
I can't, but would like to be able to. I can pull off a heel toe downshift from 4th - 3rd quite nicely, but that's pretty easy.
I've never been able to do 3rd - 2nd, probably the most important one, without jerking the car on the brakes too much.
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Practice, practice and then practice until it becomes second nature....or like this.

 
Nothing beats the feel of engaging the clutch to change gear then disengaging it and applying throttle.

An auto is probably better for daily commuting but driving your favourite car and going for a cruise it has to be manual.
 
[TW]Fox;28952437 said:
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy changing gear too. There isn't much as satisfying as hitting the right gear as you power out of a nice bend. It's great fun. Nobody can dispute this.

But whilst there isn't anything quite as fun as nailing a perfect change out of a wonderful bend there isn't anything quite as tedious as sitting in a queue of traffic clutch in clutch out clutch in clutch out and unless you walk to work and have a Cayman S in the garage you'll be feeling the rage of that many times more than you'll feel the joy of the right gearshift.

Which is why I'm now completely sold on a good automatic. I resisted for so long, as I am sure you will remember - I spent months looking for a manual 530i. Then I spent months looking for a manual 335i. This is because frankly the plus-points of autoboxes at that point were, IMHO, still over-shadowed by the negative points - less satisfying manual change, reliability concerns, increased fuel economy, etc.

Now I have an automatic and I have even let a 535i pass me by because it had a manual gearbox. How things change.

The other great thing a good automatic does is get rid of 75% of what makes a diesel so crap. There is no experience in driving more joyless than changing gear yourself on a diesel powered car. Simply awful. There is no thrill of nailing the right gear, there is a constant frustration as you battle with the pittiful powerband to keep the stupid thing in the power zone. I hate manual boxes with diesel engined cars so much I even pay more for hire cars to make sure they are auto.
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I agree with that. As I have peviously mentioned I'd be happy with an auto if I commuted and just had a wafty car.
 
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