Mclaren-Honda MP4-30 *** 2015 Launch Thread

Not always a good thing though. Williams have lead the way in tight packaging for the last few years but not dominated.

Weren't most of RBRs problems last year because the tight packaging was hindering there Renault PU?
 
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http://www.grandprixtimes.com/news/display/09962
 
Isn't that the same as Ferrari? I.e. putting the MGUH in-between the 2 half's of the turbo, yet still keeping them both at the rear?

Although this is all rubbish anyway, Dr of Engineering drunkenmaster has written a couple of papers on it above...
 
It's all a bit of a guess really, two supposedly very well respected technical guys in Scarbs and the Italian guy who writes a bunch of books with technical drawings of the cars most seasons fundamentally disagree on what last years Ferrari engine was like. Scarbs is convinced last years Ferrari was as Honda's engine is shown in these articles this year, the other guy (and these articles) are convinced the Ferrari engine was like Renault's is shown to be.

Scarbs again and others are convinced the Honda is a full split turbo a-la Mercedes but I'm not convinced of that entirely. It appears to be based off a single picture which they think shows one of the air ducts being towards the front of the engine... it's not as obviously(to my pretty lame eye) going towards the front of the engine as similar pics of the Mercedes. Another point is I'm not sure when the picture was taken as I saw some suggestion it was from the end of season test. There is also rumour that Honda had an A and B spec engine, A being Merc full split, B being more Renault/Ferrari style. It's quite possible they tried the full split end of last season and it simply wouldn't work so they now have the B spec engine for this season.

Again almost every source says the engineering feat of the long split, with a long shaft connecting the pieces, controlling the vibration and keeping it reliable, is one of the most impressive things Mercedes achieved. Ferrari had good people and couldn't solve it, it's not unthinkable to think in the time frame given(less than it took Merc to solve it) that Honda also couldn't get that working.

Scarbs appears to believe the engine is full split turbo from a dubious single picture maybe from a earlier version that had to change, but he says Mclaren have flat out told him the MGu-H is in the v of the engine... making these layouts not particularly accurate. Although it is possible that the compressor and mgu-h are pushed back into the V... would likely mean a small compressor though.

What I don't really get is, after over a year now of seeing that Ferrari in the garage over and over again with people taking pictures, how can two leading technical analyst types completely disagree over the design of last years Ferrari engine?

EDIT:- I'm still fairly sure I've seen an article from mid way through last season maybe where a Ferrari guy was actually talking about the full split, how they had the idea themselves but couldn't solve it so went with a half split turbo. Which would agree with what Scarbs believes of the Ferrari engine at least... can't find the article though.
 
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Given that McLaren are one year behind Mercedes at least it means very little.

It means quite a lot tbh. Next year McLaren could be mighty, hopefully the PU will be strong, aided with the tight aerodynamics washing over the size zero rear end.
 
Ok I'm a bit confused.

McLaren is meant to have the best body (zero size rear end) but everyone seems to think they're gonna be rubbish this year and have no pace, so can someone fill me in?

Is their aero rubbish (despite the back)?
Is it the engine?

Or is reliability so bad we just don't think they'll finish any race?
 
Ok I'm a bit confused.

McLaren is meant to have the best body (zero size rear end) but everyone seems to think they're gonna be rubbish this year and have no pace, so can someone fill me in?

Is their aero rubbish (despite the back)?
Is it the engine?

Or is reliability so bad we just don't think they'll finish any race?

The engine and performance from it is an unknown quantity. Reliability is proving to be a known quantity though, and it's not very good. The Mercs / Red Bull and Ferrari etc. are developing on last year's cars and haven't been standing still, and with all the mileage they were able to clock up in testing means that they are going to be able to develop the car with performance related aero updates.

Problem for Mclaren is that hardly any mileage was clocked and the PUs (unlike Merc's) haven't been driven under stress at full load, which will probably produce further reliability problems for McLaren. Also a year behind on current regs, limited engine supply this season (4 I think instead of 5 last year) and the new teaming up with Honda and learning to work with eachother again doesn't set McLaren up for any advantages.
 
It means quite a lot tbh. Next year McLaren could be mighty, hopefully the PU will be strong, aided with the tight aerodynamics washing over the size zero rear end.

It means little because it's nonsense. You literally can't claim a car has great packaging until it's working well. Small doesn't mean great. If small means they built radiators that are too small and cause the car to fail that is awful packaging, not good packaging. He's doing a Ted, which is "it's curvy, thus it must be great" or the "it's tight at the back therefore it's perfect... I need not know if it actually works, it LOOKS like it SHOULD work based on some very simple thinking".

A tight package that compromises everything else in the car, kills it's ability to run flat out due to heat or other failures isn't good packaging. Scarbs is being a complete donkey suggesting they are a year ahead in packaging because he literally can't know. Lotus tried to do good packaging last year and it failed badly. Too many people operate from the idea that good engineers can't make mistakes and it's laughable because more teams made mistakes than got it perfect last year, Mercedes made mistakes, just less mistakes than successes. Assuming that Honda will be good because they had more time or knew of others designs ignores the fact they can get bits wrong, same with packaging, just because Mclaren made it tight doesn't mean it will run well tight.

It COULD be awesome or it COULD be an entire failure, anyone calling it a year ahead of a known working and awesome car is basically an idiot. Scarbs comes out with a lot of nonsense but has access a lot of others don't.

Ok I'm a bit confused.

McLaren is meant to have the best body (zero size rear end) but everyone seems to think they're gonna be rubbish this year and have no pace, so can someone fill me in?

Is their aero rubbish (despite the back)?
Is it the engine?

Or is reliability so bad we just don't think they'll finish any race?

Mclaren have a tight package, as above, that is all that is known. Everything inside could fail every race because there isn't enough cooling or the rush to shrink the car simply means, like the engine, that you half arse every part you make by rushing it.

If you look at aero incredibly simply you can say tight packaging = faster car, but that doesn't mean that a tighter packaged car will be faster than some other car if every part of the other car works better.

Time will tell how good it is but nothing from testing(which for Mclaren started in November with this engine) has shown reliability, performance or a fast car. It's shown no speed or reliability and you can't win without both, could it have those hidden away somewhere.

Another issue is in season development. Mclaren have effectively the biggest change in car design meaning it's likely pretty much every part of the aero needs tweaking before it actually works brilliantly(assuming it can). But preseason testing is one of the few times you can really just go out, do a few laps, come in and try a different wing, get data, dedicate time to set up without rushing towards the race 2 days later. Good preseason testing to a large degree dictates the direction the entire development direction the team will likely take for at least the first 3 months of the season, potentially the areas of development over the majority of the season. SO while Merc and most teams have great data and will go back, examine the data and try and make a better front or rear wing, a tighter sidepod, a better part in the suspension, whatever. Mclaren is lacking really any of that data. Ultimately what works at 80% engine power and going around slower might react entirely differently on the limit.

So poor preseason testing generally has a big impact on in season development and Mclaren will be the car that needs it the most.
 
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McLaren is meant to have the best body (zero size rear end) but everyone seems to think they're gonna be rubbish this year and have no pace, so can someone fill me in?

Williams had the tightest arse on the grid for many of their worst years, so that in itself means nothing if the aero as a whole doesn't deliver.

McLaren have taken an aggressive approach and apparently looked good on track when it was on track, but really this is a year where they've thrown away what they had and started again. There will be problems with packaging, but I think they've almost intentionally given themselves problems to solve. They're writing off 2015 to make 2016 a better year. If they're close to the front at the end of the season, then it's been a good year.
 
The good news is that Mclaren are reknown for developing at an exponential rate, podiums and wins at the end of the season could be feasible if all the stars align. We'll have to wait and see, personally I'd be happy with a finish in the points this weekend though.
 
They are also renowned for being forced to develop quickly through making stupid decisions, and dropping the ball when they make good decisions and build a good car.

This is a team who haven't won't a WCC in 16 years!
 
Also a year behind on current regs, limited engine supply this season (4 I think instead of 5 last year) and the new teaming up with Honda and learning to work with eachother again doesn't set McLaren up for any advantages.

Sill think that's unfair on Honda - don't see why it should be any different to what everyone else had last season


Seeing as a certain Adrian Newey has always been successful with his (very) tightly packaged cars, it cant be bad

Its not the be-all and end-all, but it sure does help

Even the RBR that was a complete failure in last season's pre-season ended up winning......3 races last season
 
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The good news is that Mclaren are reknown for developing at an exponential rate, podiums and wins at the end of the season could be feasible if all the stars align. We'll have to wait and see, personally I'd be happy with a finish in the points this weekend though.

They have struggled to develop a cold.
 
The good news is that Mclaren are reknown for developing at an exponential rate, podiums and wins at the end of the season could be feasible if all the stars align. We'll have to wait and see, personally I'd be happy with a finish in the points this weekend though.

Id be happy with a finish
 
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