Mclaren-Honda MP4-30 *** 2015 Launch Thread

The engine itself is likely less changed than you believe, the fundamental cooling, air intake for engine, general direction of air, it's all fairly similar. The biggest changes come in tubing/piping and where you jam every little radiator for everything, how you package it all, that really wouldn't have changed the fundamental design/shape/anything about the main engine itself.

No, of course not, otherwise there would have been little point in testing at all, and certainly not putting a unit together for Abu Dhabi. What I mean is that performance doesn't come into it yet - at all - they're seem content working away on systems without considering tweaking yet. They're taking a methodical approach rather than rushing things (I guess they could have come up with some basic maps, for example, while working on the other problems) - again suggesting they aren't interested in chasing performance early on.
 
I think performance absolutely comes into it.
Honda isnt spending all this money to just put out a reliable engine. They want to win and there is no doubt about this.

In F1, all teams worry about performance at all times. In a less competitive environment, they can take their time to get reliability right, first and then work on power output.

If McLaren fail to put out a competitive car (ie. reliable AND fast), by the later half of the season (which is not far away), I can't see why Alonso would stay and why any top driver would want to drive their car. Alonso hasn't joined the company to help develop a reliable, but slow car. He wants to win, immediately, if possible.

Behind the scenes I'm sure they are worried - just how worried, we will never know.
 
The engine itself is likely less changed than you believe, the fundamental cooling, air intake for engine, general direction of air, it's all fairly similar. The biggest changes come in tubing/piping and where you jam every little radiator for everything, how you package it all, that really wouldn't have changed the fundamental design/shape/anything about the main engine itself.

Effectively they would have put their general engine design which by then was a split turbo, put it in the engine shaped space in the chassis(don't forget that Mclaren were running a split turbo design already) and pretty much duck taped down radiators/pipes in every space they had. They weren't looking for aero efficiency or top cooling at that point. They would have been hoping to creep around at 50% power if that, without hitting anywhere near top temps and ultra tight packaging wasn't required at that stage.

It will have been a prototype engine as I said but not that far removed from the current engine, in terms of working on the electronics, timings, finding some problems it still gave them a huge 2 month lead on what anyone else had at the same stage last year.

Gav, yup, I've said all along I expect 2015 to be a test season and I think they'll run into issues all year. I've likened it to Merc many times, it took them 2-3 years of significant rebuilding of the team to get where they were at the start of last season. I think what will ultimately hurt them for 2016 as well is even with 2015 as a test year, one team running won't find nearly as many problems as two let alone four teams would.

Merc have stated that having more teams has undoubtedly helped them, saying that other teams have run into problems that let them find and fix them before Merc as a team ran into the same problem themselves.

I honestly think they'll find it more of a struggle this year than most believe and I think the lack of extra teams running will prevent them being competitive in 2016. They need time on track and have paired a new engine with less testing than any other team will have with an ultra aggressive new car they have only just built... it's asking for trouble. Honestly a more conservative car that allowed them more consistent engine running then pairing a better tested engine to a ultra aggressive car next year might have been the way to go IMHO.

I mean RBR had a LOT of experience with the style of chassis/aero design/packaging as they started off with last year but it gimped their running compared to less aggressive cars BUT they had those other cars getting miles on the engine, something Mclaren won't have as a back up.

I really wouldn't be surprised if it was 2017 before Mclaren looked like they could be competitive again.

The trouble is, the aggressive packing of the McLaren is only possible due to the design of the engine and the location of the ancillaries. Due to the limited tokens available over the next couple of years Honda would not be able to design a 'safe' engine and then change it to allow for the size 0 back end as there wouldn't be enough change allowed, they had to design it in from the start. Therefore you need the representative bodywork to ensure that the cooling solutions work.

If you look at Renault and Ferrari neither have a split turbo this year (in fact Ferrari have removed their partially split one and replaced with a setup similar to Renault). They would have to spend too many tokens to copy Mercedes and the performance benefits would be less than spending them on other areas of the car and optimizing their current setup.

One of the reasons the RBR did so well over the previous seasons was that the Renault lump had better packaging and lower cooling requirements than the other engines. The engine freeze effectively prevented the other engines being modified to close this gap.
 
I think performance absolutely comes into it.
Honda isnt spending all this money to just put out a reliable engine. They want to win and there is no doubt about this.

I'll contextualise my post more: performance isn't what's important now, just that there is potentially lots of it, which they'll be able to tap into later in the season and more so next.

The skinny car is all about creating barriers to overcome - the old adage of you can make a fast car reliable, but you can't make a bad car good. Again, see the Ferrari 640. Or to a lesser extent the MP4-18.

I think McLaren in particular are over-stretching themselves intentionally so they can tweak and fettle with it this year with little in the way of consequences and be as [RonSpeak™] optimised [/RonSpeak™] as possible next year. That's not a comfort Mercedes had (they wanted to win from the start of the new era, which is understandable given it was an even playing field), but given the fat oaf that was the 2014 car and the new engine, McLaren felt this was the best way to ensure a genuine shot next year. I'm not a McLaren fan at all, but that prospect excites me.

Clearly the vision is impressive, as Alonso has bought into it, and while he's not exactly made all the right moves recently, the plan must be good if he's to make this, of all gambles, this late in his career. He could have just waited for a Mercedes seat to materialise.
 
Honda were way to cautious last time out. They didn't make the continuous "reliability" upgrades that the other teams were doing and gradually ended up with a underpowered engine. Glad they are going all out this time.
 
Interesting comments from the McLaren testing 'blog' from the second day of Barcelona testing:

YASUHISA ARAI - Honda R&D senior managing officer – chief officer of motorsport


“Today’s programme has been productive: we were able to undertake some useful practical running with the power unit, and I’m satisfied with what we achieved. We covered off today’s list of planned test items, and we’re ready to homologate the power unit at the end of next week
 
Interesting bit from F1.com - http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2015/3/16858.html

Image1.jpg
 
I've been looking at this for 5 minutes now and still no nearer to why they would go for that layout. Looking at the Merc, it's super compact and the compressor at the front of the package is efficient.
 
I've been looking at this for 5 minutes now and still no nearer to why they would go for that layout. Looking at the Merc, it's super compact and the compressor at the front of the package is efficient.

I'm assuming it allows for a thinner overall chassis profile, aiding aerodynamics to the back of the car.
 
IT's an idiotic article, for one thing Ferrari ran this design last year with the partial split with the mgu-h in between the compressor and turbine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgKqE7mVikM

SO honda didn't take a different approach with that alone, also they managed to miss the biggest advantage of the split turbo it enabled Mercedes to offset most of the problems with having a bigger compressor and turbine, their compressor is massive compared to the other two engines, it means the turbo did more, the compressor was more effective, the engine was more efficient, it harvested more power and it used that power more effectively.

I haven't looked too deeply in to it but Ferrari had the worst engine and Honda have most closely replicated their partial split turbo design. I've heard, though have no idea if true, that Ferrari have moved to something closer to Renaults design with the mgu-h sitting in the V of the engine also like Merc for more efficient mgu-h power. Ferrari and Renault likely want a full split turbo but can't necessarily change enough of the engine in with around 30 tokens to get there in one step. It's quite possible, if not probable that Renault/Ferrari have made changes with moving to a full split turbo next year in mind.

EDIT:- a scarbs analysis thing says the Ferrari has reverted to the compressor/turbine together with mgu-h as in the picture, however that certainly isn't what was being used last year as he specifically stated they'd changed.

A major issue on the Ferrari was the turbine was too small, considering it's the furthest back piece if that was one of the reasons the turbine was smaller. Being a bit further forward puts more a bigger area to make it bigger. Also saying they are getting it much hotter, again last year they had a cooler running engine but that was largely because the turbine was smaller, generating less power. More heat, more power, more mgu-h harvesting. The small split turbo but at the back of the car may well turn out to be the single worst design. Ferrari clearly had the worst design last year.

I wonder if in both cases it was a failed Merc design turned into a salvaged design. Ferrari specifically stated they tried the full split turbo like Merc but couldn't solve the vibration/engineering issue of the extra long shaft between turbine/compressor. They described what they did as a small split turbo. I wonder if they built the entire engine assuming they could sort it, then found when they couldn't because everything else was done and due to lack of time they effectively had to bolt it all on the back because they had no other choice.

Now, did Honda run into the same mistake. We'd been led to believe all year they changed to make a split turbo with everyone believing it to be the best.. with the advantage of being able to start off with that design while Ferrari/Renault might not have the tokens to switch to it... being touted for months). Then like Ferrari simply fail to make that work and at some point running into also having to make the same compromise Ferrari did. I hope they intended to do it and whatever Ferrari did wrong to make that design not work doesn't kill the Honda as well. But Ferrari have gone away from that and improved drastically... not sure that bodes well if that is really the way Honda have gone. Even then, Ferrari's intercooler was much lower, the higher radiators on the Merc seems like an odd choice.

It's been stated all over the place that the long shaft connecting the split turbo on the Merc took something like a full year to crack, with a decent amount of cash spent on that one thing, it has obvious benefits and two teams have ended up with something that feels like a failed attempt at it. At no stage through the past 12 months has it sounded like Honda were planning to do a half split turbo in the Ferrari style, not even a hint of it.
 
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Most people seem convinced that Mclaren are actually running a full split turbo as per Mercedes and that the F1 pictures are basically retarded. It seems likely that Ferrari had the style of engine(though not exactly the same) that the website is saying Honda have and may well have gone more Renault like this year(possibly in a half way step to going full split turbo next year).

Scarbs is fairly certain it's a full split turbo design... he and others are basing this on a picture and where the main intake vents appear to be going, with one going to the front. Personally the picture Scarbs and others are making that assumption from, I can't tell a think from at all.
 
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