McLaren - were they right to favour LH over FA?

[ps3ud0]

Just something I thought of today after the race, thought it could be discussion worthy, though no doubt its gonna be full of IFs and BUTs. I guess with speculation comes heated debate so lets keep it civil

I do think in hindsight that if McLaren had kept Alonso over Hamilton they as a team would have enjoyed more success by now and most likely achieve the WCC thats eluded them for many years aswell as more WDCs for Alonso. For sake of argument lets assume they still picked the same second drivers so during the Kova years I doubt it would have been much different though that leads me to my second thought.

I also think during this period McLaren would have built better cars from the outset purely on the basis that Alonso is the better technical driver over Hamilton and much more able to inform engineers how to setup the car and where to investigate upgrades which would have lead to a virtous circle in success and performance, especially in todays world of limited testing...

This has kinda ended up as a statement rather than the simple question I posed in the title, but whats your thoughts? Seriously if you feel this topic has been done to death, say and Ill get this thread deleted, I personally think this angle regards McLarens fortunes hasnt really and Im considering not who is the faster driver but who would have benefited McLaren more or worked better within driver pairings.

NB: For sake of argument lets pretend that LH entered the sport with another team so LH and FA never raced at McLaren together...

P.S. Im happy to attempt to backup my claims where possible, but thought most were either generally agreed or just plain obvious

ps3ud0

 

[Janesy B]

Alonso never really looked like he fitted in at McLaren, the season after Alonso left and Hamilton won the driver's championship so I don't think they could have made any better decision...

 

[Mr Men]

No they were wrong, Alonso would have won them the title in 2007 and 2008, but I am glad cause now he is at Ferrari

 

[ps3ud0]

Alonso never really looked like he fitted in at McLaren, the season after Alonso left and Hamilton won the driver's championship so I don't think they could have made any better decision...

Not sure winning one WDC in so many years is that great when you consider their car has pretty much been there or thereabouts. Maybe not good enough to win WDCs year in, year out, but a favourite to win the WCC with 2 competent drivers.

To me its like McLarens success/performance is directly related to LH being there. McLaren wasnt really known as an untidy outfit when Mika was there but now its considered near enough the joke of the paddock. Just makes me wonder if their ability to deal with race day strategy or even something unrelated as decent pit stops isnt bourne out of this one decision. Its a massive assumption on my behalf and I dont really believe it but theres some poorly qualifed logic behind it (call it an enducated guess).

Im trying to encourage some discussion, not to rile people

ps3ud0

 

[orderoftheflame]

No they were wrong, Alonso would have won them the title in 2007 and 2008, but I am glad cause now he is at Ferrari

Arguably he would have had the points to win in 2007 if he hadn't been a massive douche in Hungary.

Hamilton won it for them in 2008 anyway, and could have won it in 2007 potentially. So I don't think they've made the wrong decision.

They weren't anywhere near competitive the whole year against the Brawn and Red Bull in 09, 10, 11, and I doubt Alonso would have changed that.



Not only that, he was one of the parties involved in Spygate willingly. Ruling them out (though not alone) of the 07 WCC.

 

[Mr Men]

Arguably he would have had the points to win in 2007 if he hadn't been a massive douche in Hungary.

Think you will find it was Lewis that kicked it all off in Hungary

 

[ps3ud0]

They weren't anywhere near competitive the whole year against the Brawn and Red Bull in 09, 10, 11, and I doubt Alonso would have changed that.

See Im of the thought that the car they would have produced with Alonso there would have been better. But then I kill my own reasoning because its not like Ferrari havent produced dud cars while Alonsos been there at the start of the season...

Hmmm not as clear cut as I first thought

ps3ud0

 

[Janesy B]

What good is keeping Alsonso when he wasn't on speaking terms with his opposite number and didn't get on with the team? I seriously doubt Alonso would be winning anything in that environment. No good having the car when you don't have the state of mind...

 

[JRS]

Well, to be honest - who thought that Lewis Hamilton would only have one title still in 2012 after his '07 and '08 seasons?

(Actually - who would have thought that Alonso wouldn't win another title before now....)

I've said before that I think the year at McLaren really hurt Alonso. He was obviously promised Number 1 status, and then had that carpet pulled from underneath him. He had to return to a Renault that was basically a spent force at that point. Should McLaren have told Lewis to back Alonso? No. Should McLaren have sat Lewis down after Hungary and explained in no uncertain terms to grow the **** up and not play silly buggers with road order in qualifying? Yes. Instead, they came down on Alonso....who promptly set in motion the final showdown over Spygate.

Would we have the Alonso that we have now without that nonsense? An Alonso who has taken a starting money special of a Ferrari and dragged it up to the pointy end of things? Maybe not. Sure, McLaren would be no worse off if they'd managed to keep hold of him, but I don't think they'd be any better off either.

 

[orderoftheflame]

But then I kill my own reasoning because its not like Ferrari havent produced dud cars while Alonsos been there at the start of the season...

Hmmm not as clear cut as I first thought

ps3ud0

I was going to mention this, but nm.

Think you will find it was Lewis that kicked it all off in Hungary

He still did a lap that would have put him on pole, regardless of what Lewis did. If not for his complete douchyness, he could have finished on the podium without the penalty, and had the points to win the WDC.

 

[ps3ud0]

What good is keeping Alsonso when he wasn't on speaking terms with his opposite number and didn't get on with the team? I seriously doubt Alonso would be winning anything in that environmental. No good having the car when you don't have the state of mind...

See my NB please, it was made exactly to counteract your point

ps3ud0

 

[Janesy B]

See my NB please, it was made exactly to counteract your point

ps3ud0

I don't think you can relate McLaren's 'decline' to Hamilton, I don't know if LH can be blamed for the mechanics forgetting how to change wheels or the race strategists failing to respond to events on circuit. They've seemed to have turned a corner this weekend with a great stop putting Button in second, hopefully they can keep that up.

 

[ps3ud0]

Sure, McLaren would be no worse off if they'd managed to keep hold of him, but I don't think they'd be any better off either.

No doubt Im sitting on the same fence, I just think that LH was quite a destabilising force at McLaren and it as a team (on race day) is a shadow of its former self. By a distance though Id rather have FA there if what happened that season just never happened (as per my NB).

I concede I dont really follow teams so perhaps its me just remembering more recent times much more easily and forgetting when they were just as amateur in the past, but even if they were they seemed to convert more wins/podiums than they are now...

ps3ud0

 

[Mr Men]

Lewis does not seem very team orientated unless it's going well, he will be often moaning down the radio even when the slightest thing goes wrong, Alonso is a much better team player and motivation for all in the team.

Lot's of Ferrari fans thought Alonso was a whinger before he came to Ferrari but he has shown them all to be wrong

 

[ZG002]

I think Ron not leading the race team has been a much bigger factor in the Mclaren we see now.

 

[ps3ud0]

I think Ron not leading the race team has been a much bigger factor in the Mclaren we see now.

Well I did consider that, but the issues at McLaren were happening while he was still firmly at the helm, so its hard to consider that a bigger factor IMO. Perhaps its something that happened before LH even joined - any ideas?

ps3ud0

 

[Twirlywoos]

I just want Massa to leave Ferrari- the guys obviously not performing well. Ferrari should get Perez and be done with him once and for all.

 

[JRS]

I concede I dont really follow teams so perhaps its me just remembering more recent times much more easily and forgetting when they were just as amateur in the past, but even if they were they seemed to convert more wins/podiums than they are now...

McLaren have never been good in adverse situations. Whenever they've come out well it's by sheer luck, or the skill of their drivers. As far back as '76, with James Hunt going for the title, they were rubbish at strategy, and responding to other events on track, and dealing with the FIA.

As the man himself said about that Japanese GP:

McLaren screwing up again. With their abysmal track record in responding to panic and crisis I wasn't about to believe their lap chart!

 

[dannyjo22]

Well, to be honest - who thought that Lewis Hamilton would only have one title still in 2012 after his '07 and '08 seasons?.

Not me.

Yes they were wrong, the difference in quality is there for everyone to see. It's not just about speed by desire/hunger and complete professional attitude.

Alonso has that in his favour these days. Mclaren was a bad point in his career, something I don't think would have happened had whitmarsh been in charge.

I think 10 years from now we will be looking at how Lewis only won one world title, analyzing where it all went wrong. He's now navigated himself into a position where regardless of talent he's saddled at a team that isn't able to provide him with the equipment or consistency his talent deserves. He's now boxed in where he has to spend another 3+ years watching them flounder from one disaster to the next.

His management/advisors have messed up. He's now worth far less than the deal he signed years ago.

I'd take Alonso over Hamilton every single time.

 

[ps3ud0]

I think 10 years from now we will be looking at how Lewis only won one world title, analyzing where it all went wrong. He's now navigated himself into a position where regardless of talent he's saddled at a team that isn't able to provide him with the equipment or consistency his talent deserves. He's now boxed in where he has to spend another 3+ years watching them flounder from one disaster to the next.

His management/advisors have messed up. He's now worth far less than the deal he signed years ago.

Im going to be harsh here, but I do think LH has pretty much made his bed and now has to lie in it. Hes a very talented driver but I dont think hes a great one for developing cars which has led him to his current situation at McLaren and maybe why hes overlooked by other teams as their main driver.

To get back on topic, the relationship between LH and McLaren (aka Ron Dennis) while tight hasnt been purely beneficially symbotic for both, lots of compromise has led to the current 'downfall' of the team...

ps3ud0