Mini-ITX Upgrade

JRJ · 21 Aug 2023 at 23:27

Looking at upgrading my current mini-ITX build which is housed in a Silverstone SG13 which I want to keep, although it's sufficient for day to day office tasks it's really showing its age with photo and video editing, it also doesn't meet the requirement for Windows 11 upgrade, current spec is below, where can I go with it, haven't touched it in about 6 or 7 years.

Operating System
Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
CPU
Intel Core i5 4690K @ 3.50GHz
Haswell 22nm Technology
RAM
8.00GB Dual-Channel DDR3 @ 799MHz (11-11-11-28)
Motherboard
MSI Z87I GAMING AC (MS-7887) (SOCKET 0)
Graphics
SyncMaster (1680x1050@60Hz)
2048MB ATI AMD Radeon HD 6670 (MSI)
Storage
111GB Samsung SSD 850 EVO 120GB (SATA (SSD))
111GB OCZ-AGILITY3 (SATA (SSD))

Tetras · 21 Aug 2023 at 23:32

Where's the bottleneck with the apps/tasks you're doing?

Do you have a budget?

covenantuk · 22 Aug 2023 at 06:08

Pretty much anything you buy now is going to blow your current setup away. I'd definitely allow budget for a decent monitor if you're into video/photo editing

What PSU are you using - are you reusing it? What's your budget?

JRJ · 22 Aug 2023 at 08:27

@Tetras @covenantuk thanks for the replies both, initial bottleneck is the Windows 11 upgrade, I've not run Photoshop or Lightroom in about 4 years while life got busy but during bulk editing then it started showing its age so I'm anticipating the latest versions being worse.
Budget wise I don't really want to go over £1k, I don't need top of the range just something pretty decent that'll last a few years.
New monitor is on the shopping list and is a seperate budget to this

PSU is a Silverstone 300w or 350w off the top of my head, likelihood is this will need to be factored in as well.

covenantuk · 22 Aug 2023 at 09:16

Main problem with sticking to ITX is the cost of the motherboards and PSU.

On your budget, to get a decent GPU you're looking at a DDR4/LGA1700 motherboard Intel build, but this means current gen CPU is the most you'll be able to fit.

If you're going to do any gaming, I'd consider getting an 6700XT AMD card with more VRAM but its a tradeoff with Nvidia DLSS

[*] 1 x Thermaltake Toughpower SFX 850W 80 Plus Gold Native PCIE 5 Power Supply (SKU: CA-1BU-TT) = £189.95
[*] 1 x Thermaltake Kettle Plug Mains Cable (SKU: CB-001-OG) = £0.00
[*] 1 x Gigabyte B760I AORUS PRO DDR4 (LGA 1700) DDR4 ITX Motherboard (SKU: MB-5BY-GI) = £209.99
[*] 1 x Team Group 8Pack RIPPED Edition 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 PC4-28800C14 3600MHz Dual Channel Kit - Black/ (SKU: MY-001-8P) = £79.99
[*] 1 x Nvidia Fight For Freedom Bundle - Overwatch 2 Invasion (SKU: DIG-NVI-00681) = £0.00
[*] 1 x Asus GeForce RTX 4060 Dual 8GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GX-49H-AS) = £299.99
[*] 1 x Intel Core i5-12600K 3.70GHz (Alder Lake) Socket LGA1700 Processor - Retail (SKU: CP-69X-IN) = £239.98
[/LIST]

Total: £1,027.90 (includes delivery: £7.99)

Tetras · 22 Aug 2023 at 21:22

JRJ said:
@Tetras @covenantuk thanks for the replies both, initial bottleneck is the Windows 11 upgrade, I've not run Photoshop or Lightroom in about 4 years while life got busy but during bulk editing then it started showing its age so I'm anticipating the latest versions being worse.

The reason I asked is because these apps have been updated over time and they now use the GPU with some tasks and so, it's difficult to make a specific recommendation without knowing if you're mainly bottlenecked by the CPU, GPU or something else.

My basket at OcUK:

1 x Intel Core i5-13400 (Raptor Lake) Socket LGA1700 Processor - Retail (SKU: CP-6BC-IN) = £229.99
1 x Asus ROG Strix B760-I Gaming WIFI (LGA 1700) DDR5 ITX Motherboard (SKU: MB-6KB-AS) = £199.99
1 x TeamGroup Vulcan 32GB (2X16GB) DDR5 PC5-44800C36 5600MHz Dual Channel Kit - Black (FLBD532G5600HC36BDC01) (SKU: MY-0BB-TG) = £99.95
1 x Zotac GeForce RTX 3060 Twin Edge LHR 12GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card (SKU: GX-12G-ZT) = £269.99
1 x WD Blue SN570 1TB SSD NVME M.2 2280 PCIe Gen3 Solid State Drive (WDS100T3B0C) (SKU: HD-589-WD) = £43.99
1 x Phanteks Eclipse P200 Air Mini-ITX Case - Black (SKU: CA-0AL-PT) = £56.99
1 x Seasonic Focus GX-650 650W 80+ Gold Modular Power Supply (SKU: CA-06V-SS) = £94.99

Total: £1,007.88 (includes delivery: £11.98)

I checked compatibility with your existing case as best I could and I think everything is alright, but best to double check. If not, I have suggested a different case, which you can remove to fit a better cooler (than the CPU's box cooler) within the budget.

Upgrading the CPU to an i5-13500 is highly recommended (similar price, has 4 more E-Cores, a more powerful IGP and 2 codec engines), but OCUK don't sell it.

I'm not sure if the 4060 offers anything beneficial for Photoshop/Lightroom, so I went with VRAM (Puget's benchmarks for the 3060 Ti and 4060 Ti seem to suggest the answer is no and the 4060 Ti is actually slower in Davinci

).

JRJ · 24 Aug 2023 at 21:25

Thanks both, I'll take a look through those over the weekend, @Tetras I'll take onboard the 13500 comment also.
I think I'll download the latest Adobe software this weekend and see if I can test my current setup a bit better, I know scratch drives are no longer needed for Lightroom Libraries so other stuff has more than likely changed.

JRJ · 9 Mar 2024 at 09:59

Revisiting this again as I never got around to upgrading, 7 months went quick :eek:

I've been playing around with setups on ************ and only seeing a few £100 difference between high end and mid spec systems but not sure if it's complete overkill or just future proofing, I'm likely to be using this for the next 6-8years so don't mind spending now if required.

I'd still like to keep the SG13 as I can't really find anything similar but I know it'll be tight.

So top end I've come up with

Intel Core i7-14700K 3.4 GHz 20-Core Processor

Asus ROG STRIX Z790-I GAMING WIFI Mini ITX LGA1700 Motherboard

Crucial Pro 64 GB (2 x 32 GB) DDR5-5600 CL46 Memory

Western Digital Black SN850X 2 TB M.2-2280 PCIe 4.0 X4 NVME Solid State Drive

Gigabyte EAGLE GeForce RTX 4060 Ti 8 GB Video Card

I'm hoping the Noctua NH-L12S will be enough, this is my starting point/upper end? Anyone have any observations?

mickyflinn · 9 Mar 2024 at 13:21

You could drop to the b760 versions of that motherboard and save yourself a £100+ but you get less ports so do a comparison.,

64gb memory makes sense and take a look at Zotac models of the GPU as they offer a 5 year warranty if registered within 30 days otherwise it's 3 years.

There are contradictions on max GPU length on the out case on the sugo site it says 270mn/10.6" but the gigabyte eagle 4060ti is 272mm so be aware.

GeForce RTX™ 4060 Ti EAGLE 8G Specification | Graphics Card - GIGABYTE U.S.A.

window.isNuxtPage = true;GeForce RTX™ 4060 Ti EAGLE 8G Specification | Graphics Card - GIGABYTE U.S.A. (function (w, d, s, l, i) { w[l] = w[l] || []; w[l].push({ ...

www.gigabyte.com

The Zotac I reccomended is only 225mm in length.

Zotac GeForce RTX 4060Ti Twin Edge 8GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card

Order Zotac GeForce RTX 4060Ti Twin Edge 8GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card now online and benefit from fast delivery.

www.overclockers.co.uk

The NH-L12S will make the 14700k throttle if fully loaded but an undevolt or power limit restriction mite help.

JRJ · 9 Mar 2024 at 13:48

mickyflinn said:
You could drop to the b760 versions of that motherboard and save yourself a £100+ but you get less ports so do a comparison.,

64gb memory makes sense and take a look at Zotac models of the GPU as they offer a 5 year warranty if registered within 30 days otherwise it's 3 years.

There are contradictions on max GPU length on the out case on the sugo site it says 270mn/10.6" but the gigabyte eagle 4060ti is 272mm so be aware.

GeForce RTX™ 4060 Ti EAGLE 8G Specification | Graphics Card - GIGABYTE U.S.A.

window.isNuxtPage = true;GeForce RTX™ 4060 Ti EAGLE 8G Specification | Graphics Card - GIGABYTE U.S.A. (function (w, d, s, l, i) { w[l] = w[l] || []; w[l].push({ ...

www.gigabyte.com

The Zotac I reccomended is only 225mm in length.

Zotac GeForce RTX 4060Ti Twin Edge 8GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card

Order Zotac GeForce RTX 4060Ti Twin Edge 8GB GDDR6 PCI-Express Graphics Card now online and benefit from fast delivery.

www.overclockers.co.uk

The NH-L12S will make the 14700k throttle if fully loaded but an undevolt or power limit restriction mite help.

Thanks @mickyflinn the b760 is the other MB sat in my basket, with the Noctua cooler and case there's no hope of overclocking currently, but with a case and cooler swap later down the line it's doable, head versus heart battle.
Thanks for the GPU suggestion would be a much easier fit, the 272mm is possible with a very slight mod but shorter would be easier.
I do have the ability to mount a 120mm AIO in the front of the case but reviews for that size say they don't offer any benefit over air cooled.

mickyflinn · 9 Mar 2024 at 14:11

JRJ said:
Thanks @mickyflinn the b760 is the other MB sat in my basket, with the Noctua cooler and case there's no hope of overclocking currently, but with a case and cooler swap later down the line it's doable, head versus heart battle.
Thanks for the GPU suggestion would be a much easier fit, the 272mm is possible with a very slight mod but shorter would be easier.
I do have the ability to mount a 120mm AIO in the front of the case but reviews for that size say they don't offer any benefit over air cooled.

You don't want to be overclocking you should ideally be looking to undervolt as the intel chips are at there Thermal limit.

What size/form factor PSU do you have ?

JRJ · 9 Mar 2024 at 17:11

mickyflinn said:
You don't want to be overclocking you should ideally be looking to undervolt as the intel chips are at there Thermal limit.

What size/form factor PSU do you have ?

Currently a 300w SFX PSU which will need upgrading as well and will stay SFX size.

mickyflinn · 9 Mar 2024 at 18:33

JRJ said:
Currently a 300w SFX PSU which will need upgrading as well and will stay SFX size.

Mite be worth getting a case like the jonsbo a4 then you can put a 240mm aio in it.

Tetras · 9 Mar 2024 at 18:39

JRJ said:
Anyone have any observations?

Do you even need the graphics card? Intel's IGP is pretty capable.

JRJ said:
I'm hoping the Noctua NH-L12S will be enough

For multithreaded load with a modern i7? Not likely, but you could power limit it as mickyflinn suggests.

See here:

Intel Core i9-14900K Raptor Lake Tested at Power Limits Down to 35 W

There's no denying that Intel's Core i9-14900K is a power hog. This article examines the power, performance and thermals effects of limiting its power consumption, with very interesting results. Additionally, we investigate undervolting to determine if efficiency can be optimized even further.

www.techpowerup.com

JRJ · 9 Mar 2024 at 19:49

Tetras said:
Do you even need the graphics card? Intel's IGP is pretty capable.

For multithreaded load with a modern i7? Not likely, but you could power limit it as mickyflinn suggests.

See here:

Intel Core i9-14900K Raptor Lake Tested at Power Limits Down to 35 W

There's no denying that Intel's Core i9-14900K is a power hog. This article examines the power, performance and thermals effects of limiting its power consumption, with very interesting results. Additionally, we investigate undervolting to determine if efficiency can be optimized even further.

www.techpowerup.com

Thanks @Tetras I'll take a read.

Graphics card, heavy lightroom/photoshop and some video editing, assumed I would need something decent?

I think I need to stop being stubborn and explore new itx case options.

Tetras · 9 Mar 2024 at 19:58

JRJ said:
Graphics card, heavy lightroom/photoshop and some video editing, assumed I would need something decent?

It depends. For 2D, if you're using features that are GPU heavy (e.g. photoshop has an AI denoise), or an app that funnels a lot of work to the GPU, then yes, but the IGP is more than powerful enough to handle a 3D viewport and QuickSync is stupidly powerful for the small cost in getting the IGP over a F/KF.

If you have managed to survive with the HD 6670, then it suggests you weren't using many/any GPU accelerated features.

For video editing: you might want to watch this:

Is UHD770 iGPU enough for video editing? | Intel 12900k iGPU Performance in Premiere Pro

Checking out the video editing performance of Intel i9 12900k but without a dedicated GPU. Is the UHD770 iGPU enough for video editing?Sponsor Message: Spi...

www.youtube.com

JRJ · 10 Mar 2024 at 09:25

So I've been bouncing between NR200 max and A4 H20 reviews overnight and I think I'm going to go with the A4 H2O, overall capacity is the same as the SG13 but gives me room for a 240mm AIO.

JRJ · 10 Mar 2024 at 09:29

Tetras said:
It depends. For 2D, if you're using features that are GPU heavy (e.g. photoshop has an AI denoise), or an app that funnels a lot of work to the GPU, then yes, but the IGP is more than powerful enough to handle a 3D viewport and QuickSync is stupidly powerful for the small cost in getting the IGP over a F/KF.

If you have managed to survive with the HD 6670, then it suggests you weren't using many/any GPU accelerated features.

For video editing: you might want to watch this:

Is UHD770 iGPU enough for video editing? | Intel 12900k iGPU Performance in Premiere Pro

Checking out the video editing performance of Intel i9 12900k but without a dedicated GPU. Is the UHD770 iGPU enough for video editing?Sponsor Message: Spi...

www.youtube.com

I wouldn't really say surviving, I've barely used Adobe products over the last 4 years whilst building a house and didn't really notice it much using the Capture one express from Sony, but using the trial version of LR and PS with the new AI features really showed its age with simple AI removal taking about 10mins for some images.

JRJ · 13 Mar 2024 at 09:01

So just to update this, I went on a spending spree last night and ordered the following -

Coolermaster NR200P Max which includes a Coolermaster 850w SFX PSU and 280mm AIO
Intel i7 14700k
Asus Rog B760-i motherboard
64GB Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5600
WD Black SN850X 2TB M2 SSD

Just working out which 140mm fans to replace the stock fans with plus I'll add 2 120mm to the bottom of the case.

Left to buy - a new GFX card this ones been the tougher choice to decide on so will run internal GFX until I can decide, also need a new monitor.

Case is a little bigger than I originally planned (A4 H2O) but factoring in the limitations of AIO on that case the added space and extra fans should keep the toaster a little cooler.

mickyflinn · 13 Mar 2024 at 09:56

Take a look at this review it has some interesting point about that case which mite help you.

Cooler Master MasterBox NR200P MAX Review

The ITX-sized Cooler Master NR200P MAX is a slightly larger version of the NR200P. The additional room is used to house a 280 mm AIO, while also including an 850W SFX power supply. This makes the NR200P MAX one of few ITX enclosures that takes the guesswork of getting the best-possible cooling...

www.techpowerup.com