Mk1 MX-5 LSD question

Slam it on £150 coilies blud. sik.


Adjusting the car's geometry does not mean putting on some 'coilovers', the MX5 is massively adjustable from the factory, getting it set up properly by somewhere like WIM or some such will give the car much better handling etc.

All the dampers and springs are working just fine, I'm not intending to put coilovers on this car (as said above, not looking to turn it into a money pit, just a bit of pocket money motoring fun).

It's great how adjustable these are in standard form, looking forward to having the geo done tomorrow.

I have a pair of used 195/50/15 and a pair of 205/45/15 R888s in the garage which I'm going to be putting on the BMW for the trackday coming up in a couple of weeks. The rears are in very good condition and still road legal so may put them on the mx5 rims afterwards. The fronts are already past road legal and I'm not expecting to get more than half a track day out of them (they cost me £26 so who cares), so perhaps I'll get another road legal pair and put all 4 on the mx5.
 
Of course there are times when it would be beneficial. I'm just taking issue with you claiming that they drive like **** without one, in all cases, all of the time, which is quite clearly rubbish.

Please provide quote - I've never said that, in fact I almost said the opposite & even commented that for the majority of drivers, the lack of a LSD is actually a GOOD thing!

In multiple posts I've commented that I'm talking specifically for my experience. You seem to have extrapolated this in to me saying the above... which yes, is clearly rubbish.

What I objected to is a comment that the LSD adds next to nothing to the MX5 experience... this is also clearly rubbish.
 
Slam it on £150 coilies blud. sik.


Adjusting the car's geometry does not mean putting on some 'coilovers', the MX5 is massively adjustable from the factory, getting it set up properly by somewhere like WIM or some such will give the car much better handling etc.

Oh god... I knew a few people who went down the ebay special coilovers route... those things were terrible. They only cared about the look & were skint, so it suited them... but the traction and ride quality were worse than stock suspension... You also want a bit of body roll due to the way rubber's grip works (load vs grip is an exponential curve, up to near breaking point).

The ~£350 ebay specials weren't all that bad, though.

My favourite mk1 suspension are the performance 5 range - I'm waiting for them to become available again, that's why the suspension of the GF's '5 hasn't been replaced yet.

It's the perfect balance of comfort and traction of all I've tried (stock, KYB, ebay specials, Tein flex & pro, Gaz gold, koni sport & another couple). Had them on my 220bhp 'charged '5... that was the most fun car I've ever owned & yet was also the most comfortable '5 I've ever driven.
 
Slam it on £150 coilies blud. sik.


Adjusting the car's geometry does not mean putting on some 'coilovers', the MX5 is massively adjustable from the factory, getting it set up properly by somewhere like WIM or some such will give the car much better handling etc.

Yeah - the stock suspension is a heck of a lot better than people give it credit for.

I think people slate it because they've experienced it when worn or not setup correctly.

They are fantastic straight from the factory.

I do think P5's are a noticeable upgrade, however. Koni's are good for the track, but not the best on the road. Tein Pro's are fantastic - but you pay a premium for them & I still don't rate them as highly as P5.

You'll also want to look in to stiffening up the chassis too... the under-chassis brace bars should be your first port of call, these make the biggest difference to chassi-twist.

Then you can get roll bar (proper one, not style bar), engine bay brace & finally P5's chassis rail strengtheners... these last three don't make as big of an improvement as you might think though, the front and rear under-chassis braces make the most difference.





EDIT: Also worth mentioning, be careful if you look at second hand P5 (if any is even available) as some had a valve issue that's still being fixed. Phil @ P5 is fantastic at fixing these though - doesn't matter if you're first owner or 5th!
 
I am getting my geometry done soone, as soon as I have done the wishbone bushes front and back (decided on poly), coilovers and rear ARB.

Here is something you will be wanting to show the guys before he tackles your cars geometry:

DSC01631.jpg


Sorry about it being the wrong way round. Not my image.

EDIT: those are fast road settings from this thread:

http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=59907
 
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Oh god...

Initial sentence wasn't exactly serious. ;) Throwing cheap suspension on a car generally just isn't worth it (in some cases it can be) and I'm sure it isn't a good idea on the MX-5 given how good they are even at stock.

As the car is pretty old, adjusting the stock suspension should sort a lot of issues, refreshing it with standard or an actual upgrade and having the geometry done should improve things drastically.
 
They use viscous fluid actually, which degrades over time. Need a bit of heat in it to start working effectively anyway I believe. Torsen is a much better option like you said.

Ah ok - happy to be corrected on that one - I thought it was a wet-clutch style setup.

Just had a quick google out of curiosity... seems we're both right... liquid heats up to draw plates together & it's plate contact that actually cause the LSD function.

Excuse wiki quote:
Viscous


Nissan 240SX Viscous LSD


The viscous type is generally simpler because it relies on hydrodynamic friction from fluids with high viscosity. Silicone-based oils are often used. Here, a cylindrical chamber of fluid filled with a stack of perforated discs rotates with the normal motion of the output shafts. The inside surface of the chamber is coupled to one of the driveshafts, and the outside coupled to the differential carrier. Half of the discs are connected to the inner, the other half to the outer, alternating inner/outer in the stack. Differential motion forces the interleaved discs to move through the fluid against each other. In some viscous couplings when speed is maintained the fluid will accumulate heat due to friction. This heat will cause the fluid to expand, and expand the coupler causing the discs to be pulled together resulting in a non-viscous plate to plate friction and a dramatic drop in speed difference. This is known as the hump phenomenon and it allows the side of the coupler to gently lock. In contrast to the mechanical type, the limiting action is much softer and more proportional to the slip, and so is easier to cope with for the average driver. New Process Gear used a viscous coupling of the Ferguson style in several of their transfer cases including those used in the AMC Eagle.
Viscous LSDs are less efficient than mechanical types, that is, they "lose" some power. In particular, any sustained load which overheats the silicone results in sudden permanent loss of the differential effect.[7] They do have the virtue of failing gracefully, reverting to semi-open differential behavior. Typically a visco-differential that has covered 60,000 miles (97,000 km) or more will be functioning largely as an open differential;[citation needed] this is a known weakness of the original Mazda MX-5 (a.k.a. Miata) sports car. The silicone oil is factory sealed in a separate chamber from the gear oil surrounding the rest of the differential. This is not serviceable and when the differential's behavior deteriorates, the VLSD center is replaced.
Sounds like quite a gentle lock too, so relatively forgiving :)

Still... torsen definitely better :D
 
Oh god... I knew a few people who went down the ebay special coilovers route... those things were terrible. They only cared about the look & were skint, so it suited them... but the traction and ride quality were worse than stock suspension... You also want a bit of body roll due to the way rubber's grip works (load vs grip is an exponential curve, up to near breaking point)

Both of my E36s have got <£200 ebay specials on and both are fine. They're not great, and certainly nothing compared to clarkey's HSDs, for example, but they are adequate and significantly better than the stock suspension costing four times as much (at least).

Particularly on the track car, they are very good indeed, and most people who have been in the car have commented on it's stability and how easy it is to control.
 
It's not a problem at all on the main roads, and it's only happened a few times in the lanes, but i'd like an LSD regardless as I simply prefer the feel of driving with one, and if the back end steps out.... oh well ;)

^^

That would probably have been a better way to have phrased my initial comment to avoid the banter that followed :D

That's effectively what I meant.
 
I am getting my geometry done soone, as soon as I have done the wishbone bushes front and back (decided on poly), coilovers and rear ARB.

Here is something you will be wanting to show the guys before he tackles your cars geometry:

DSC01631.jpg


Sorry about it being the wrong way round. Not my image.

EDIT: those are fast road settings from this thread:

http://www.mx5nutz.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=59907

Adjustable caster or 5deg from stock? 5deg would be nice :D

Can't understand a degree more camber at the rear than at the front, I'd have thought it the other way round, and possibly half a degree more on both at least. I am comparing it to my E36 though so could be way out.
Toe looks the same as on my E36.
 
Both of my E36s have got <£200 ebay specials on and both are fine. They're not great, and certainly nothing compared to clarkey's HSDs, for example, but they are adequate and significantly better than the stock suspension costing four times as much (at least).

Particularly on the track car, they are very good indeed, and most people who have been in the car have commented on it's stability and how easy it is to control.

Oh - you're very much right about the E36s... A friend/colleague has them on his 328 track car & they're great!

The similar specials for the MX5 are no-where near as good, however & definitely not as good as the stock MX5 suspension (unless stock suspension is worn).
 
Oh - you're very much right about the E36s... A friend/colleague has them on his 328 track car & they're great!

The similar specials for the MX5 are no-where near as good, however & definitely not as good as the stock MX5 suspension (unless stock suspension is worn).

Figures it changes from car to car. I shall stay clear of them then! I have a spare set of stock springs which I'm chopping tonight and going to fit out of curiosity, although unless it's a marked improvement and i'm confident its not going to mash my shocks I'll stick with standard.

I would like it a bit lower just for aesthetics as it's comedy high, but the handling is sublime and I don't wish to compromise that just to I can look at the car when I'm not in it.
 
Initial sentence wasn't exactly serious. ;) Throwing cheap suspension on a car generally just isn't worth it (in some cases it can be) and I'm sure it isn't a good idea on the MX-5 given how good they are even at stock.

As the car is pretty old, adjusting the stock suspension should sort a lot of issues, refreshing it with standard or an actual upgrade and having the geometry done should improve things drastically.

Yeah - got that, but it was a good reason to share my experience of the various suspension setups I've been able to test :)

I went through quite a few myself & was very active in the mx5nutz community while I was living down in Bournemouth, so got to try quite a few :)
 
Figures it changes from car to car. I shall stay clear of them then! I have a spare set of stock springs which I'm chopping tonight and going to fit out of curiosity, although unless it's a marked improvement and i'm confident its not going to mash my shocks I'll stick with standard.

I would like it a bit lower just for aesthetics as it's comedy high, but the handling is sublime and I don't wish to compromise that just to I can look at the car when I'm not in it.

What shocks have you got? (sorry if already mentioned earlier)

The stock shocks don't take too well to non-standard springs from what I've seen.

But if you're trying anyway, I'd be interested to know your findings. I've only seen that combo once & it could have been a setup issue.

I take it you're going to Wheels in Motion? They're great guys & incredibly knowledgable. Have a chat with the guy actually doing the adjustments (rather than just sitting in the waiting room) & be sure to mention to him exactly what the suspension is & what's been changed... then also what you want from the car.

They'll be able to tailor it to what you want from the car very well... all my cars go to them within a month of buying :D

Well, where's the fun in that? ;)

Hehe
 
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Absolutely no idea! I've not had a chance to poke around the car yet, although it's going in to have the heavy steering checked out tomorrow morning before alignment, I'm hoping to get under the car whilst it's on the ramps and have a look about.

Handling wise the car feels very tight so I'm not expecting any horrific discoveries in that department, but I'll report back once I know. With regard to the springs, I'm going to try them tonight and see how I feel and possibly go back to stock. I don't want to pay for a full geo only to start messing with ride heights and removing and replacing shocks - completely senseless.

Edit: No, I'm taking it to A-Line in dudley, they're top blokes, know their shizzle, have a hunter machine and due to this being the tenth time or something going in I'm sure to get the usual insane discount!
 
Yeah, definitely make any changes before getting the geo done or you'll just have to get it done again :D Just note... part of the different feeling you'll experience will be due to the change in geo by swapping the bits - so that might skew your perception of good/bad - just bear (bare?) that in mind and know that a full geo on either setup will make a noticeable difference to both :)

Fair enough - sure there are others as good/better than WiM... just my personal favourite - would be quite the trek for you though! :)
 
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Yeah, definitely make any changes before getting the geo done or you'll just have to get it done again :D Just note... part of the different feeling you'll experience will be due to the change in geo by swapping the bits - so that might skew your perception of good/bad - just bear (bare?) that in mind and know that a full geo on either setup will make a noticeable difference to both :)

Fair enough - sure there are others as good/better than WiM... just my personal favourite - would be quite the trek for you though! :)

Aye, these guys are in Dudley so only about 45 minutes away from me. They work on the driftworks team cars amongst others, certainly well versed in fast alignments.
 
The stock 1.6 mx-5 barely has enough power to pull the skin off a rice pudding let alone drive everywhere spinning up one wheel.

My open diff use to spin one wheel up off damp roundabouts or very tight corners only when pushing hard or when going round a drift or auto cross circuit and provoking the back end

The benefits of the torsen are that it is stronger and now has made my car grip much more out of corners, it doesnt turn it into some kind of drift machine, you have to try a lot harder to make it go sideways in fact.

90% of driving is in a straight line or in traffic and the type of diff you have does not really come into play unless cornering.

I don't see a problem with F/I running open diffs, just look at 200sx's they have open diffs as stock. I would say it improves the drive and also will last longer as the 1.6 open diffs are made from cheese.
 
The stock 1.6 mx-5 barely has enough power to pull the skin off a rice pudding let alone drive everywhere spinning up one wheel.

OH.jpg



Have you actually ever driven one? They are perfectly capable of spinning up a/both wheels if you're so inclined. They also go sideways impressively well (as people on here have already stated in this thread) with or without an LSD.
 
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