More difficult to drive F1 or rally car ?

Combat squirrel · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:45

Having a discussion

with my flat mate, he maintains that a rally car is more difficult to drive than an F1 car, I DO NOT, my reasons are

1) F1 cars race on a track with other cars to take into account (imagine a really busy moterway at rush hour, its a headache)
2) Much greater overall speeds and forces to deal with
3) F1 cars much more unpredictable with there behaviour, with small differences becoming massive due to the greater sensitivity of the cars
4) a few other reasons but wont go into great details

He thinks that driving one is simply pointing the nose of it to get round corner, i.e. turn wheel to 35degrees angle and 'leave it there', i just laugh and challenge him to watch a drivers eye view in car, have you seen how much there fighting with the wheel/car? moving the steering wheel as much as a rally cars wheel.

Anyways my views there, and 1 vote for F1 being more challanging a car to drive, whats your view people ?

Mods could you turn this into a poll ?

CS

paradigm · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:47

I wouldnt say that F1's are more unpredictable, they arent racing on snow, gravel, mud, wet grass etc etc etc.

Rally cars IMO are the harder drive, not that im saying F1 is a pushover, just rally should technically be harder, even without the added bonus of other cars to contend with.

Conanius · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:50

i think they are two very different racing disciplines, like michael schumacher couldnt jump into a rally car and be pro, a rally driver couldnt do the same... or at least thats my impression

MrCake · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:51

Sorry have to agree with your mate!

In a rally the drivers may not have to immediately deal with other drivers (although they do catch up when there are accidents) BUT they do have the small matter of doing considerable speed on varying surfaces from tarmac to snow to mud. If you have ever seen videos of how busy their feet are during a rally then you will see just how much effort they need to put in to keep the cars on the roads.

They also dont have the safety of lovely armco barriers and many rallys take place half way up a mountain with sheer drops! Not to mention all of the silly crowds that jump out of the drivers way just in time and uncontrollable things such as animals running onto the course in places like Africa.

Ask yourself this, when was the last time you saw an F1 driver who needed to use the handbrake to get round a corner or got some serious air from a jump!?

Combat squirrel · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:52

hmm odd thought, place joe bloggs in an F1 car and a rally car, im gonna guess he will get the hang of a rally car way quicker, of course due to them being modified 'off the self' cars (b4 being shot down i know about the only thing the same is there shell

lol), but i ask, gettin a car around the corner asap in the various weather conditions, yes difficult, id have a hard time doing, but thats my point, i reckon i could after a days practice, however i see it taking a good few weeks to get the F1 around track corners at speeds comparable to professional drivers

Combat squirrel · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:55

i think both are skilled drivers, i just think on a pure 'skill level', F1 cars are more difficult to drive, again in car views of f1 drivers in front of another car breaking, iv never seen reactions like them, its like 0.1 seconds of time to avoid hitting the car in front, even more so at 200mph!

paradigm · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:55

I know for a fact that it would take me less practice to get good at throwing an F1 car around a perfectly flat track than it would to learn the ins and outs of rallying to have enough control and knowledge about the co-pilots instruction to take 180º bends on gravel at speed, let alone a full course.

Think about it, F1 cars are designed from the ground up to stick to the floor and go around bends. Id have a little more trouble in the wet though.

PeterNem · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:55

Being as you asked which is more difficult to "DRIVE" (not race!) I'd say an F1 car.

Rally cars aren't that different from road going cars. However, I'm guessing by drive you mean race and do well at.

SoliD · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:56

Rally cars.

1) F1 race on the same track 60ish times in a race, they will come to learn the track quickly and where all the small bits of traction are. Rally drivers will drive a stage once maybe twice over the course of a weekend, but even then conditions will change between the two stages, due to either rocks being thrown onto the road, tracks being driven into the stages etc, and the rally driver will have the corners shouted for him, but he has to analyse every bit of road that he drives on to look for the best grip.

2) much greater speed but over a smaller area, formula one track = 5ish km, rally stage = 12km minimum usually.there may be greater speed involved but only over 5km of track, a rally driver has to drive at 100mph+ on gravel roads that arent exactly easy to predict, aswell as in finland where they take jumps at over 130mph. this is whilst deciding what route to take whilst you are driving.

3)F1 cars are far from unpredictable, they are sensitive but have a large number of computer controls these days, they have traction control, launch control everything. Rally Cars maybe have as many computer controls such as launch control etc, but they are driving over rough ground where you have to predict what the car is going to do and move the car before it happens so that you dont spin/crash etc

4) Rally drivers have to drive within sometimes as little as 10ft of people (let alone cars)spectating now imagine how crazy you have to be to have faith in your ability and drive flat out whilst not crashing into people.

so imo rally drivers is a much harder discipline, just due to the amount of driver thought that has to go into every movement you make of the steering wheel and throttle/brake. f1 is nowhere near as complicated!

Chief · 5 Mar 2005 at 15:59

I wonder which would take more balls:

1) Going round a sharp bend at 70mph with a sheer drop to certain death or

2) Going round a sharp bend at 150mph in an F1 car with what looks like next to no safety features?

Great thread btw, I've always wondered about this myself. I personally think rallying is harder. Especially old school rally cars where they had proper gears, not those paddle shift ones.

andi · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:01

You don't have to do 130mph through a forest missing trees by inches, on gravel and mud, with spectators standing just feet away, on a piece of road you've only driven once at slow speed, whilst watching for animals, and parked cars, and other competitors, and buildings, and trying to go the right way at junctions etc etc in F1.

I've got no doubt who gets more of my respect, and Schumachers not one of them.

DaveyD · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:02

I see them as two separate diciplines that both require silly amounts of skill to do. Both require incredibly precice throttle / control of wheels to get the best times. I'd say rally generally needs more variation, it's a lot more 'hands on' if you know what I mean. I'm not sure what G forces are involved in rallying, but experiencing up to 5G (in extreme cases) round corners and when braking is quite a strain on your body, meaning you really need to be able to stand it.

Combat squirrel · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:05

SoliD said:
Rally cars.

1) F1 race on the same track 60ish times in a race, they will come to learn the track quickly and where all the small bits of traction are. Rally drivers will drive a stage once maybe twice over the course of a weekend, but even then conditions will change between the two stages, due to either rocks being thrown onto the road, tracks being driven into the stages etc, and the rally driver will have the corners shouted for him, but he has to analyse every bit of road that he drives on to look for the best grip.

2) much greater speed but over a smaller area, formula one track = 5ish km, rally stage = 12km minimum usually.there may be greater speed involved but only over 5km of track, a rally driver has to drive at 100mph+ on gravel roads that arent exactly easy to predict, aswell as in finland where they take jumps at over 130mph. this is whilst deciding what route to take whilst you are driving.

3)F1 cars are far from unpredictable, they are sensitive but have a large number of computer controls these days, they have traction control, launch control everything. Rally Cars maybe have as many computer controls such as launch control etc, but they are driving over rough ground where you have to predict what the car is going to do and move the car before it happens so that you dont spin/crash etc

4) Rally drivers have to drive within sometimes as little as 10ft of people (let alone cars)spectating now imagine how crazy you have to be to have faith in your ability and drive flat out whilst not crashing into people.

so imo rally drivers is a much harder discipline, just due to the amount of driver thought that has to go into every movement you make of the steering wheel and throttle/brake. f1 is nowhere near as complicated!

hmm again interesting

your points tho,
1) as soon as it rains on F1 track, whole new ball game again
2) They may come to learn the track, however its different everytime round due to other cars being on field, unless ** in P1 at the front and dont run into any1 of course
3) I saw on topgear or C5 program that bussinessman who bought ferrari's 2002 car, it took him like 15 laps to go around at a speed faster than a normal car can do, he said it was insanly difficult to drive, v v senstive, a car weighing what, 250/200kg ? with about 1000bhp is unbeleaveably difficult to control, one weighing im guessing about 1000kg, (my 306 deisal is ~1480kg) with say 300bhp is more predicable to control on any surface, stick 1000bhp in a rally car and see how they go.
4) yes rally drivers do indeed drive with 10ft of crowds, but they know the crowd will not move (i could drive my car through a 10ft gap at any speed as long as the gap doesnt move or change size), however f1 car in front of another f1 car as no idea what the other driver will do/when he will break

carnt think of anything else right now

lol

tb2000 · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:10

I'd say the rally car is more difficult to drive. I remember a while ago my dad saying he saw a program on the telly where they got 2 top drivers, one from F1 and one from rallying (I think it may have been Michael Schumacher and Colin McRae). They swapped cars, apparently Michael Schumacher couldn't drive the rally car really at all, whereas the rally driver drove the F1 car surprisingly well and quite fast also.

Arc · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:12

This subject has been argued to death on various motor sport shows/forums (especially when it looked like McCrae was going to F1).

If WRC had you racing 19 other cars at the same time then it could be compared (eg motorcross). You have to remember though, a rally car is just a car. Might have a fancy diff and a few other toys but the current crop are not anything to rave about. Most people could jump in a rally car and drive it straight off. They might not be quick but it wouldnt take them long to get up to a reasonable speed. They would still be no where near the pros in terms of drifting on snow, gravel though.

If you jump into an F1 car you would have plenty of problems. Its not as easy as just selecting 1st and driving off. At high speed you have g forces that are simply incredible. Anyone watching Albert Park this weekend will see how the drivers control the car, it aint easy, especially with rain.

Also, this idea that F1 cars run miles away from the spectators. What about Canada, Albert Park and Monaco? You dont have any run off space in them, especially the latter. Also hitting armco at 170mph aint the best feeling in the world either

.

Its not really an F1 vs Rally argument, its a track vs rally argument.

SoliD · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:13

wont quote, but

1) ye true rain affects it massively, but when it is raining its more just a wet track with little to no grip everywhere, so its slightly more predictable.

2) ye it is different everytime with cars etc, but you can see the cars a way off as they are moving at relatively same speeds as you, its not as if they are dropped from the sky and you have to drive round them

a la bad boys 2

3) ye it will take a while to get used to, johnny englishman will find it difficult to get acclimatised to and no denying it will be harder to drive a f1 car at first but to master it like you master a rally car its a whole different ball game, ralllying has so many different driving styles, you have to drift handbrake turn, drive on varying surfaces over one stage with the same tyre, its just completely different

btw f1 cars weigh about 600kgs iirc (ask flibster) and have about 900ish hp this yr again iirc

4) ye but could you drive through a crowd going that fast over a jump at 100mph with spectators within 2ft of either side of your wingmirrors, i think not its complete confidence in your ability and your co-drivers pace notes.

need a shower dont slate me yet

ill be back

andi · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:14

Combat squirrel said:
stick 1000bhp in a rally car and see how they go.

They stuck 500bhp in one, and it got round estoril in a time that would have put in 6th on the grid for the grandprix that year :cool:

SoliD · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:16

Arc said:
Its not really an F1 vs Rally argument, its a track vs rally argument.

think this sums up what i have been writing down quite nicely.

SoliD · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:17

andi said:
They stuck 500bhp in one, and it got round estoril in a time that would have put in 6th on the grid for the grandprix that year

ye they also stuck upwards of 900hp in pikes peak competition cars. now that is beyond amazing!

paradigm · 5 Mar 2005 at 16:17

Combat squirrel said:
hmm again interesting

your points tho,
1) as soon as it rains on F1 track, whole new ball game again
2) They may come to learn the track, however its different everytime round due to other cars being on field, unless ** in P1 at the front and dont run into any1 of course
3) I saw on topgear or C5 program that bussinessman who bought ferrari's 2002 car, it took him like 15 laps to go around at a speed faster than a normal car can do, he said it was insanly difficult to drive, v v senstive, a car weighing what, 250/200kg ? with about 1000bhp is unbeleaveably difficult to control, one weighing im guessing about 1000kg, (my 306 deisal is ~1480kg) with say 300bhp is more predicable to control on any surface, stick 1000bhp in a rally car and see how they go.
4) yes rally drivers do indeed drive with 10ft of crowds, but they know the crowd will not move (i could drive my car through a 10ft gap at any speed as long as the gap doesnt move or change size), however f1 car in front of another f1 car as no idea what the other driver will do/when he will break

carnt think of anything else right now lol

1)Until they have driven 4 more laps and are used to the conditions.
2)Its not "THAT" Different, you know where another driver is going to be so long as he is on the same lap as you, i.e the racing line.
3)He might have been a **** driver? F1 cars weigh in at 600~KG with driver, and put out around 860BHP, not 200KG and 1000BHP.
4)The crowds DO move though.

5) learn to spell, please!