More PC muppetry

[Spie]

I think you can justify its being written by saying that attitudes were very different back then, but do you really think that means it's not racist? All it means is that racism was once acceptable, and doesn't mean we should continue to condone it just because there's some kind of historical precedent, or enjoy racist things with gay abandon solely because they're old.

Or alternatively, innocent comments could be made back then without some PC fascist trying to imply another meaning.

 

[robmiller]

Or alternatively, innocent comments could be made back then without some PC fascist trying to imply another meaning.

Once the three bold Golliwogs, Golly, Woggie, and ******, decided to go for a walk to Bumble-Bee Common. Golly wasn't quite ready so Woggie and ****** said they would start off without him, and Golly would catch them up as soon as he could. So off went Woggie and ******, arm-in-arm, singing merrily their favourite song - which, as you may guess, was Ten Little ****** Boys.

Eight little ******* never heard of heaven
One kicked the bucket and then there were seven
Six little ******* kicking all alive
One broke his neck and then there were five

Two little ******* fooling with a gun
One shot the other and then there was one

One little ****** living all alone,
He got married and then there were none

Do you seriously consider the above two passages to be "innocent"?

 

[i know nothing]

Reminds me of Black Pete, at least the Dutch are fighting it.

 

[Spie]

Do you seriously consider the above two passages to be "innocent"?

Yes I do.

 

[robmiller]

Yes I do.

We're hardly going to reconcile our opinions then, are we. I personally have no idea how a rhyme that celebrates the deaths of black people can ever be considered innocent or not be considered racist, but I guess that's just me.

 

[cleanbluesky]

Do you seriously consider the above two passages to be "innocent"?

It depends whether you consider the term '******' capable of catagorising a sentence in which it is used as 'innocent' or 'guilty' (of what the sentence stands accused I don't know)...

But either way, the passages were likely written at a time whereby the term '******' did not have the same connotations. Bear in mind that '******' was an american taboo from the way in which americans supposedly treated africans, whereas the texts are English.

 

[Zip]

Yes I do.

I see where Rob Miller is coming from and i agree with him.

That poem is talking about little kids dieing =/

Black kids or not that is just wrong.

eeni meeni myni mo
Catch a "*****" By the toe.
If he hollas let him go.
eeni meeni myni mo

Also come across somewhat racist to me.
Those 2 things were made up in the days of slavery and when black people were classed as a lower clase people and TBH those 2 things i dont like

 

[cleanbluesky]

We're hardly going to reconcile our opinions then, are we. I personally have no idea how a rhyme that celebrates the deaths of black people can ever be considered innocent or not be considered racist, but I guess that's just me.

Whereas one 'celebrating' (I see no celebration) the death of white people may 'innocent'?

If this is not the case, then why bring race into your comment?

 

[cleanbluesky]

That poem is talking about little kids dieing =/

This poem talks about kids dying in the same way that Goldilocks describes breaking and entering, beastiality and theft

 

[Spie]

We're hardly going to reconcile our opinions then, are we. I personally have no idea how a rhyme that celebrates the deaths of black people can ever be considered innocent or not be considered racist, but I guess that's just me.

It's a rhyme. Rhymes and poems are very diverse. Or do you want an "approved list" of acceptable rhymes with all others banned?

Why is it racist? What descrimination is there against black people in this rhyme

 

[robmiller]

It depends whether you consider the term '******' capable of catagorising a sentence in which it is used as 'innocent' or 'guilty' (of what the sentence stands accused I don't know)...

I don't think it's racist solely because of it's use of "******". Replace every instance of "******" with "black kid"—or "white kid"—and I'd still think it was racist and horrible.

"Innocent" is not only the antonym of "guilty", by the way, although you're just being obtuse:

3. not involving evil intent or motive

But either way, the passages were likely written at a time whereby the term '******' did not have the same connotations. Bear in mind that '******' was an american taboo from the way in which americans supposedly treated africans, whereas the texts are English.

"******" might've originated in America, or at least existed there before it did here, but it's pretty naïve to say that it wasn't a racist comment over here. It might have been more acceptable, sure—just as racism itself was—but to deny that it had racist connotations is simply revisionism, IMO.

 

[Zip]

This poem talks about kids dying in the same way that Goldilocks describes breaking and entering, beastiality and theft

All didnt end well for her did it?

She eventually got eaten for her crimes fromt he version ive heard

These black kids didnt do anything and just got knocked off one by one

Ever read the book To Kill a Mocking Bird?
You probablky have but go read it again, you will see why i disagree with certain things like those 2 poems

How ever i do think golly **** are fine

 

[Al Vallario]

We don't ALL wear bowler hats or are chefs!

If you are indeed offended by that (and I'm guessing you are not), you have every right to complain about it. I, for one, am glad that you are able to do so. On the other hand, I doubt you have any evidence to back up your perception that the imagery is offensive, and it is highly probably that no one is going to join you in complaining. Nothing will get done, and that is the beauty of the process.

It seems that 'PC' is the new buzz-acronym of choice for the masses to throw around at anything they disagree with. Whilst this is no reflection on the OP (Spie), I must say I'm surprised that he is branding people "PC fascists" and telling someone who has merely expressed concern that people should consider the racist connotations he perceives a toy had associated with it in the past to "**** off"

 

[robmiller]

It's a rhyme. Rhymes and poems are very diverse. Or do you want an "approved list" of acceptable rhymes with all others banned?

I never mentioned anything about banning things? Where did you get that from?

Why is it racist? What descrimination is there against black people in this rhyme

It's talking in a celebratory tone about the deaths of "*******", I am really struggling to see how that's not racist. It's discriminatory in that it's identifying the children solely by race and it's derogatory in that it's celebrating their deaths.

 

[cleanbluesky]

I don't think it's racist solely because of it's use of "******". Replace every instance of "******" with "black kid"—or "white kid"—and I'd still think it was racist and horrible.

So you essential problem is the mention of race in the poem?

Where is the specific discrimination within this poem? Does the poem suggest that the children are dying because they are black?

Are we not allowed to discuss race within art?

"******" might've originated in America, or at least existed there before it did here, but it's pretty naïve to say that it wasn't a racist comment over here. It might have been more acceptable, sure—just as racism itself was—but to deny that it had racist connotations is simply revisionism, IMO.

Have you got any proof that it was a derogatory term, in the UK, at the time of print?

 

[Zip]

So you essential problem is the mention of race in the poem?

Where is the specific discrimination within this poem? Does the poem suggest that the children are dying because they are black?

Are we not allowed to discuss race within art?

Like people like to make jokes about Arabs and the US today back in the ol' days it was fasionable and people liked to make jokes and stuff like that about black people.

 

[robmiller]

So you essential problem is the mention of race in the poem?

Where is the specific discrimination within this poem? Does the poem suggest that the children are dying because they are black?

Are we not allowed to discuss race within art?

Ugh, will you two stop talking as if I want to ban this or as if I think it shouldn't be allowed to be discussed or something? I've never even hinted at that.

Have you got any proof that it was a derogatory term, in the UK, at the time of print?

Fowler's "Modern English Usage", 1926:

["******" is] felt as an insult by the person described, & betrays in the speaker, if not deliberate insolence, at least a very arrogant inhumanity.

That do?

 

[Spie]

It's talking in a celebratory tone about the deaths of "*******", I am really struggling to see how that's not racist. It's discriminatory in that it's identifying the children solely by race and it's derogatory in that it's celebrating their deaths.

Celebratory tone? Where?

 

[cleanbluesky]

Ugh, will you two stop talking as if I want to ban this or as if I think it shouldn't be allowed to be discussed or something? I've never even hinted at that.

You didn't answer the question but now that you've highlighted that the word was generally offensive then you're probably on the button with regards to the poem.

But the **** (as in Gollys) can stay.

That do?

Yes it will, point conceeded.

 

[robmiller]

You didn't answer the question but now that you've highlighted that the word was generally offensive then you're probably on the button with regards to the poem.

Sorry I must've scanned over it. My problem isn't the mentioning of race, and to be honest I don't have a problem with it per se. I think it's racist: I don't want it banned, I wouldn't vilify someone who sang it, but it's still racist. I think it's an anachronism and I think it would be best if it didn't exist, but I don't care enough to actually do anything about it.

Celebratory tone? Where?

If not a celebratory tone then it's certainly making light of their deaths—it's hardly sympathetic, is it!