Mortgage Rate Rises

true, but the price could have instead been £60 cheaper, so that'd be a £100 swing.

What I was pointing out is that when you get to a really low mortgage the risk is far smaller than with people with 200+K mortgages. If I had that huge a mortgage I wouldn't have been fixing 2 years a pop when the rates were low or going on a tracker. I would have fixed for as long as I could.
 
Agree. The main benefit has been for those that could buy it that the price inflation has been bonkers. Although as is often discussed, its basically paper wealth unless you can downsize or move somewhere cheaper etc.
I think paper wealth is underrated. It gives you a lot of flexibility, you can sell up if times get hard, you can do equity release to fund stuff etc.
There's a base level of need for housing but the people with lots of equity are living in homes that are way, way beyond that base need in terms of either location or size. In other words the downsizing or moving somewhere cheaper you mention is dismissed based on wants, not needs. People live in London and have their kids in schools in London and have friends in London and work in London. So they want to live in London. But if push came to shove and they lost their jobs they could take their £500k+ equity and go and buy a house that is smaller / somewhere else, they might not want to but at least they can do that compared to if they have little or no equity. I've never met anyone that has lots of equity whilst also living in the absolute bare minimum accommodation, downsizing is always an option for these people even if they might not like it because Tarquin and Penelope would have to share a bedroom.
 
I think paper wealth is underrated. But if push came to shove and they lost their jobs they could take their £500k+ equity and go and buy a house that is smaller / somewhere else, they might not want to but at least they can do that compared to if they have little or no equity. I've never met anyone that has lots of equity whilst also living in the absolute bare minimum accommodation, downsizing is always an option for these people even if they might not like it because Tarquin and Penelope would have to share a bedroom.
lol this is true .. they could buy a bigger house for much less ..it's crazy what you lot pay for a 3 bed semi .. sell it move and work from home with a trip to the toilet city once a week or so .. quids in ..
 
Two years left at 1.82%

But by the end of that, should only have about 38k left to pay. So shouldn't be a huge jump in monthly payments.

Nothing to worry about. We have basically the same left and we went from 1.XX % to 3.48% and only went up £40 a month. Easily manageable.

If we remortgaged now from our fixed 1.89% our payments would go up by more than some peoples current total monthly payment. Perhaps £700. We have 27 years left and over 300k. Depressing AF.
When we got on the ladder in 2020 we couldn't get 10 year fixes as our LTV was high as FTBers. We almost got a 2 year and then were going to lock in long term on a 10 around summer 2022, but we instead we decided rates would only go up so went with the longest we could at 5. You can only do the best you can at the time. Can't beat yourself up over it. I'm hoping they come down to 3.0% by August 2025 but I think they will stay about what they are now which.... I don't like to think about really for now.


I think paper wealth is underrated. It gives you a lot of flexibility, you can sell up if times get hard, you can do equity release to fund stuff etc.
There's a base level of need for housing but the people with lots of equity are living in homes that are way, way beyond that base need in terms of either location or size. In other words the downsizing or moving somewhere cheaper you mention is dismissed based on wants, not needs. People live in London and have their kids in schools in London and have friends in London and work in London. So they want to live in London. But if push came to shove and they lost their jobs they could take their £500k+ equity and go and buy a house that is smaller / somewhere else, they might not want to but at least they can do that compared to if they have little or no equity. I've never met anyone that has lots of equity whilst also living in the absolute bare minimum accommodation, downsizing is always an option for these people even if they might not like it because Tarquin and Penelope would have to share a bedroom.

Easy to say just move somewhere cheaper but try telling your entire family/kids/friends that you want to move away and effectively start a new life.... it's hard. You can try telling yourself you will still stay in touch with visits and electronically but it's not the same, and it will fade away.

I'd love to move somewhere out in the sticks and cheaper in the future when the kids have grown up, in terms of what house/land I could improve on and to free up finances. But not enough to the point where I would lose touch with those that matter most.
I'd love to move country as I hate what the UK is now.... but never at the expense of family so it will never happen.

I don't define the above as wants. They are needs for most people; to be with friends and family.
 
I think paper wealth is underrated. It gives you a lot of flexibility, you can sell up if times get hard, you can do equity release to fund stuff etc.
The reason paper wealth is "underrated" is it's not liquid. If times get hard can you actually sell up? If they're that hard who is buying and at what price? Are banks still loose with the credit, etc?

Edit - less of an issue if your house is owned outright.
 
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I'm really surprised we haven't seen a bigger downturn in house prices. We were planning to move this year but the new mortgage rates and general cost of living increases we've seen a significant impact on what property we could afford and yet house prices have barely dropped.

What is propping up house prices? People are still moving but adjusting their expectations? People aren't moving at all? Demand is still outstripping supply?
 
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When you say prices haven't dropped, are you looking at asking prices or selling prices?

I'm in Scotland and I know the system's are different, but first thing we usually see when there's a downturn is that things stop going for "asking price + xx%" to close or even below asking price. But there's usually little to no change in the asking figure, at least initially.
 
I'm really surprised we haven't seen a bigger downturn in house prices. We were planning to move this year but the new mortgage rates and general cost of living increases we've seen a significant impact on what property we could afford and yet house prices have barely dropped.

What is propping up house prices? People are still moving but adjusting their expectations? People aren't moving at all? Demand is still outstripping supply?

There is still a load of people to come off fix rates. High rates have barely been a year. Give it another 18 months and it will begin to unravel.
 
I think paper wealth is underrated. It gives you a lot of flexibility, you can sell up if times get hard, you can do equity release to fund stuff etc.
There's a base level of need for housing but the people with lots of equity are living in homes that are way, way beyond that base need in terms of either location or size. In other words the downsizing or moving somewhere cheaper you mention is dismissed based on wants, not needs. People live in London and have their kids in schools in London and have friends in London and work in London. So they want to live in London. But if push came to shove and they lost their jobs they could take their £500k+ equity and go and buy a house that is smaller / somewhere else, they might not want to but at least they can do that compared to if they have little or no equity. I've never met anyone that has lots of equity whilst also living in the absolute bare minimum accommodation, downsizing is always an option for these people even if they might not like it because Tarquin and Penelope would have to share a bedroom.

This is all well and good if your reason for selling is unique to yourself. (Lost job due to medical problems for example). On the other hand if the whole country is up creek and no one is buying you either default or end up selling at a much reduced price. The only people who win in situations like these are those with liquid cash to buy up all the leftovers.
 
I'm really surprised we haven't seen a bigger downturn in house prices...
Bulk of people haven't been exposed to the higher interest rates yet, talking less that 10 %. Log jam is valuations haven't equalised so unless people are forced they aren't looking to sell under value and move into something at value.

Developers round here haven't yet slashed prices or increased deposit boosts and mortgage contribution offers but then they don't need to just yet.
 
But buyers will mostly be taking new deals at the the high rates so will be impacting the budget of all buyers.

From looking around the general consensus seems to be its still down to lack of supply which is not meeting demand.

The housing market has cooled, new mortgages have dropped ~30% and people are deciding to stay longer in their current home. So there's less properties available, which is causing the price resilience.

I suppose from the stupid levels of growth we were seeing to now a small contraction is still a huge change. But thinking of the way the graph would look, maybe its a smooth curve down rather than a drop off the cliff.
 
I'm really surprised we haven't seen a bigger downturn in house prices. We were planning to move this year but the new mortgage rates and general cost of living increases we've seen a significant impact on what property we could afford and yet house prices have barely dropped.

What is propping up house prices? People are still moving but adjusting their expectations? People aren't moving at all? Demand is still outstripping supply?

They won't drop much, you need to come away from the likes of you and me and understand there are some people with "a lot" of money out there, and UK housing stock is seen as a good investment, both domestic and international.

I see property portfolios where people own hundreds of houses, and that isn't even touching the surface.

All that will happen is the rich will buy up the houses and the rich and poor devide increases further.

It's almost like these interest rates going up benefit the rich? Surely that has to be a coincidence?
 
From looking around the general consensus seems to be its still down to lack of supply which is not meeting demand.

The housing market has cooled, new mortgages have dropped ~30% and people are deciding to stay longer in their current home. So there's less properties available, which is causing the price resilience.

I suppose from the stupid levels of growth we were seeing to now a small contraction is still a huge change. But thinking of the way the graph would look, maybe its a smooth curve down rather than a drop off the cliff.

There’s been an absolute flurry of landlords selling up which is without a doubt adding to supply just as demand has fallen off a cliff, and we’re also starting to see boomers pack their bags and pass on their inheritance, which was always inevitable at some point.

I’m definitely not an expert in this area and am more than happy to be corrected by those more knowledgable than I, but I’m also not a complete novice.

Things seem to have turned. House price corrections have always taken 18–24 months historically, and everything lags dramatically with bad agents always talking up the market on the way down, leading to increasingly ridiculous asking prices (like the recent rightmove asking price index) during a downturn.

Land registry data is pretty much the only reasonably reliable measure of actual transaction prices and they’re around 12 months behind in terms of their reporting at the moment for a bunch of reasons; only last month they were updating their March 2022 data.

In my view it’s fairly obvious that nominal house prices are on their way slowly down now for a variety of reasons, and the only uncertainty is by how much.

Personally I’ve been thinking that a slow unwinding of the covid bubble (20% ish peak to trough) over the next two years is one of the more likely outcomes of this affordability crisis and I genuinely don’t believe that the cash buyers that are undoubtedly out there will prop this up to the kind of level that some people think they will.

But hey, I know that most people in this thread think that house prices only go up in a straight line and I’m a home owner myself, so I definitely hope I’m wrong; but I’m finding the data increasingly hard to ignore as each week goes by.
 
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My fixed rate doesnt end until January next year, currently at 1.29% not looking forward to the hike.
I was told you can act 6 months in advance to arrange the next rate that will apply on expiry. Or possibly just consider the hopefully small fee for the remainder, I guess this varies

I'm really surprised we haven't seen a bigger downturn in house prices.

Will vary a lot, house prices are more inflated in some areas then others. I think house prices will still go up, the central banks dont have the aim of returning inflation to zero its 2% or so which means loose policy continues. One day the music stops no doubt
 
Easy to say just move somewhere cheaper but try telling your entire family/kids/friends that you want to move away and effectively start a new life.... it's hard. You can try telling yourself you will still stay in touch with visits and electronically but it's not the same, and it will fade away.

I'd love to move somewhere out in the sticks and cheaper in the future when the kids have grown up, in terms of what house/land I could improve on and to free up finances. But not enough to the point where I would lose touch with those that matter most.
I'd love to move country as I hate what the UK is now.... but never at the expense of family so it will never happen.

I don't define the above as wants. They are needs for most people; to be with friends and family.
But isn't a roof over your head just as important? Can you care for your family if you are living in a cardboard box? I'm exaggerating a bit here but what I'm driving at is that if you have paper wealth then you are not forced into a position where you don't have a home to live in. If you have no equity and lose your income then your home will eventually get repossessed. If you have equity then you can either draw down on it to stay where you are, or use it to secure a new home. If you don't, then best case scenario you get social housing which probably won't meet one's high expectations of a luxury mansion round the corner from family etc.

For sure it is hard to tell your family and friends you are moving away. But it's also hard telling your family you are getting kicked out of your house and you have nowhere to live. What I'm driving at is that paper wealth gives a lot more flexibility if you have it compared to not having it. People talk of it in terms of "oh, my assets have gone up by hundreds of thousands in value, but it's useless if everywhere else is more expensive too". But the reality is that housing is not the only thing you need money for, if you have the option to take cash out then you can get food, transport etc.
The reason paper wealth is "underrated" is it's not liquid. If times get hard can you actually sell up? If they're that hard who is buying and at what price? Are banks still loose with the credit, etc?

Edit - less of an issue if your house is owned outright.
It's not liquid but property isn't liquid in general - even if you have a million quid in the bank or under your mattress it's not like you can pop out and buy a new house of an afternoon in the way you might a loaf of bread. There's an inherent inertia to property so the lack of liquidity is less impactful than it might be in other realms (I acknowledge it is still a factor). And it just generally protects you more to have equity, it's easier to sell a house where your mortgage is 50% LTV compared to being in negative equity or whatever.
This is all well and good if your reason for selling is unique to yourself. (Lost job due to medical problems for example). On the other hand if the whole country is up creek and no one is buying you either default or end up selling at a much reduced price. The only people who win in situations like these are those with liquid cash to buy up all the leftovers.
I think having equity still helps in these situations because even selling at a reduced price you still clear all your debts and have capital left over compared to people who owe more than the much reduced price they sell for. And we are kind of going full circle on the scenario now too, the argument was that paper wealth is largely meaningless if other properties are going up in price, but if the whole country is up creek then presumably other property is getting cheaper too.

I guess in summary on this liquidity point, obviously wealth tied up in property isn't the same thing as having cash in the bank but I still consider it great to have. We're talking people here who are not making fortunes on other investments, they are basically people who ploughed their money into their personal residence and it is now worth hundreds of thousands of pounds more. Let's say due to these dramas they only make £150k profit instead of £300k profit, they then go back to renting but have a big wedge to put down as a deposit should they choose to buy another property.

I'm really surprised we haven't seen a bigger downturn in house prices. We were planning to move this year but the new mortgage rates and general cost of living increases we've seen a significant impact on what property we could afford and yet house prices have barely dropped.

What is propping up house prices? People are still moving but adjusting their expectations? People aren't moving at all? Demand is still outstripping supply?
A few reasons:
  • There is an inherent lag because house purchases agreed today will probably take months to actually complete and then it take a while for land registry to be updated too
  • Likewise people selling houses rarely slash asking prices quickly, unless they are desperate. They were told their home was worth £500k a year ago, they still want £500k even if £475k is more realistic now. They will slowly come down the longer it goes unsold but again that takes months
  • In recent years there have been loads of ridiculously cheap long term fix mortgages, you'll have people out there who want to keep their mortgage as long as they can as it costs them less than the interest they receive in ISAs etc.
  • The population keeps increasing by about a quarter of a million people a year, these people need somewhere to leave increasing demand for housing
  • In times of uncertainty home builders may slow their expansion plans or artificially maintain prices in some way by limiting the supply of new housing (which obviously needs to keep pace with the demand)
  • Less people moving - stats show that the volume of transactions in April 2023 was down about 25% on 2022.
  • Help to buy was still running until the end of March - schemes like this artificially maintain prices, we should start to see the impact trickling through on new builds soon.
  • Mortgage quotes are typically valid for 3-6 months period. So you'll have people buying houses using mortgages agreed when rates were lower. Don't forget it wasn't until February that base rate went above 3.5%.
In short, even if you ignore influencing factors, there is market inertia so you need to allow time for things to filter through. We've only just had an interest rate rise less than a month ago so I'd say wait for Q4 to see what the real impact is.
 
Something that keeps coming up in my other halfs work on their construction jobs that I find interesting.

New developments take a lot of time, planning the scheme, designing the build, getting contracts agreed, preparing/securing the site etc. It can take several years from acquiring the land to actually getting spade in the ground.

Across the construction sector, especially in London a lot of jobs that haven't commenced are not currently proceedable, as the margin has become to slim to support the level of investment required, or has disappeared entirely unless density gets increased for the development (which requires planning, design and permission)

A lot of factors are contributing to it (not just the current uncertainty around house prices) such as labour, material costs, contractors wanting contracts renegotiated to take into account the affects of inflation etc.

Serveral decent sized contractors have already gone to the wall, others aren't hiring or are down sizing.

Not all companies are in this position - some have huge land banks for example, or have so many jobs already in flight they can just keep going on those and just slow the pace of delivery.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of new builds coming onto the market over the next 2-5 years to be impacted by this down here in the south east at least.
 
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Something that keeps coming up in my other halfs work on their construction jobs that I find interesting.

New developments take a lot of time, planning the scheme, designing the build, getting contracts agreed, preparing/securing the site etc. It can take several years from acquiring the land to actually getting spade in the ground.

Across the construction sector, especially in London a lot of jobs that haven't commenced are not currently proceedable, as the margin has become to slim to support the level of investment required, or has disappeared entirely unless density gets increased for the development (which requires planning, design and permission)

A lot of factors are contributing to it (not just the current uncertainty around house prices) such as labour, material costs, contractors wanting contracts renegotiated to take into account the affects of inflation etc.

Serveral decent sized contractors have already gone to the wall, others aren't hiring or are down sizing.

Not all companies are in this position - some have huge land banks for example, or have so many jobs already in flight they can just keep going on those and just slow the pace of delivery.

But I wouldn't be surprised if the amount of new builds coming onto the market over the next 2-5 years to be impacted by this down here in the south east at least.

Interesting. Is that because of nimbyism and opposing pressure for the developments to go ahead at all?

Forgive me for not crying a river for these developers profiting from what they call houses. From my perspective and experience, a lot of new builds are dog **** in quality and layout of the estates are poor. Houses are crammed in and knocked up quickly to maximise profit. Tiny rear gardens all overlooked. Minimal front gardens and a massive lack of drive space/parking. Lovely brick built roads are too narrow and get littered with cars and work vans along the entire roads around the estates. I know someone close to me who just bought a brand new 700k house. All 3 of the bathrooms had major leaks causing damage, as did many others down the same road. Several other issues. To be expected? Only because we accept this BS in the UK when our rip off houses get signed off as adequate.
Seen the Welsh guy on tiktok/youtube who does snagging? "Absolutely shocking" is his catchphrase. The guy finds some incredible stuff. Structurally lethal stuff. Absolute shambles.

There is no pride in workmanship anymore in many things in the UK. It's all about getting the job done as quick as possible to a level deemed adequate and then laugh all the way to the bank.
 
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