MotoGP 2019

Shimmy said:
People are questioning the penalty due to the negligible if any advantage that Crutchlow got from his start. If Marquez had done the same I'm sure the reaction would have been the same. Whether he's got a 1 second lead or 10 second lead should make no difference in applying the penalty. It's the infringement and advantage gained that should be looked at alone.

Marquez deservedly got a ride through last year at this race. He stalled his bike on the grid, bump started it, went the wrong way back into his starting slot instead of starting from the pit lane. Much worse.
He was given his ride through when he had taken the lead and it cost him the race win. If he started from the pit lane his pace was so good that he would have won it regardless even after stalling on the grid.

Take that and compare it to Crutchlow and you can understand why Cal is aggrieved.
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The penalty was known by everyone, it has been the same for many years, and it makes not one jot of difference if any advantage was gained or not.

He moved before the lights went out, it is very black and white, zero grey area, zero area for debate or discussion.

The rule mentions nothing about possible advantage, it purely mentions moving before the start.

As Cal says he clearly did not cross any white line, and video shows he didn't, again makes no difference, the rule has no mention of crossing lines, it is just purely did he move yes or no.

Yes he did so served the punishment the rule stipulates.



Marquez got his ride through for exactly the same reason, he moved and left his start position before the lights went out.

It makes zero difference Cal moved a few centimeters, and Marquez moved many meters, they both moved pure and simple.

The reason for the movement is completely immaterial and irrelevant, it is movement, (however major or insignificant it might be, it is still movement) that is all that matters as far as the rule goes.
 
Yes the ruling has been clarified a couple times already. I was just showing how you might be able to understand where Cal is coming from in his frustration.

You were suggesting punishments shouldn't be based on infringements alone and instead consider their gap to a position behind. Which is even more absurd?
 
Shimmy said:
Yes the ruling has been clarified a couple times already. I was just showing how you might be able to understand where Cal is coming from in his frustration.

You were suggesting punishments shouldn't be based on infringements alone and instead consider their gap to a position behind. Which is even more absurd?
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No I wasn't at all.

The point I was trying to make, and obviously unsuccessfully so I will try again, is this.


People say punishment should fit the crime, and that maybe a long lap penalty would have been a more fitting punishment for Cal.

I say no it would not.


A long lap penalty only adds 3 or 4 seconds or so to the riders time, so might possibly drop them one place or possibly two/three if its fairly close racing.

3 to 4 seconds is nothing, most if not all the top riders could make that back up again in a few laps, so how is that any punishment at all ??


A ride through is 20 to 25 seconds depending upon the track, and that is a much fairer punishment, sends them right back down the grid, looses them a tonne of points and is a penalty that riders would not want, so they think twice about doing the crime in the first place , it is a deterrent.



Any possibly advantage gained from the act is irrelevant, the punishment should be to mess up their race almost as much as possible, so they will think twice of even risking the act in the first place.

As I did say before, maybe instant disqualification from the race completely should be the flat punishment for any infringement.
 
Entai said:
(however minor that advantage is perceived to be, is completely immaterial, and irrelevant)
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And this is the bit I disagree with. You keep stating the rule, we know the rule, the call on the day was correct, it's the rule. I'm saying they should review the rule because the punishment does not fit the crime.
 
AndyCr15 said:
And this is the bit I disagree with. You keep stating the rule, we know the rule, the call on the day was correct, it's the rule. I'm saying they should review the rule because the punishment does not fit the crime.
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But it does
No other punishment would properly fit that crime except possibly a complete disqualification.
 
If you only get a drive through for jumping the start, why don't they just take off as soon as they stop on the grid? They'd be well clear at the front and only lose maybe 20s with the drive through.



:D
 
Lakeland said:
That’s your opinion not a fact.

Drop back 6 places is more than enough of a punishment, in my opinion. Ruining someone’s race is pointless.
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But it works in swimming, it works in Athletics, just a flat disqualification from the entire event no matter what infringement occurred. Drop back six places or so at the start of the race, is again, not much of a penalty, they will still be able to make up most of those places by the end, and will still get lots of points for them and the team, how is that any sort of penalty?

In fact that is why they have brought in the long lap penalty this year, as a penalty for exceeding track limits.

Prior to that what they would do was make someone drop back one place if they exceeded track limits during the race, again not a a penalty, so they have come up with something that will drop the rider back around 3 to 4 seconds, so that might be 2 or 3 places, depending on closeness of other riders and when in the race the penalty lap is taken.

But still again, 3 to 4 seconds is nothing, and the likes of Dovi, Rossi, or Marquez etc would make that back up in no time, so it is NOT a penalty.



Yes I fully agree the rules need looking at, but penalties MUST be something no body would ever want to be put on them, so they WILL ride better and not flout the rules, poxy little penalties that do nothing, are a complete waste of time, might as well just have none.



timmeh said:
If you only get a drive through for jumping the start, why don't they just take off as soon as they stop on the grid? They'd be well clear at the front and only lose maybe 20s with the drive through.


:D
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Exactly why a flat disqualification from the event no matter what the infringement would work better. :D:D
 
Entai said:
But it works in swimming, it works in Athletics, just a flat disqualification from the entire event no matter what infringement occurred. Drop back six places or so at the start of the race, is again, not much of a penalty, they will still be able to make up most of those places by the end, and will still get lots of points for them and the team, how is that any sort of penalty?

In fact that is why they have brought in the long lap penalty this year, as a penalty for exceeding track limits.

Prior to that what they would do was make someone drop back one place if they exceeded track limits during the race, again not a a penalty, so they have come up with something that will drop the rider back around 3 to 4 seconds, so that might be 2 or 3 places, depending on closeness of other riders and when in the race the penalty lap is taken.

But still again, 3 to 4 seconds is nothing, and the likes of Dovi, Rossi, or Marquez etc would make that back up in no time, so it is NOT a penalty.



Yes I fully agree the rules need looking at, but penalties MUST be something no body would ever want to be put on them, so they WILL ride better and not flout the rules, poxy little penalties that do nothing, are a complete waste of time, might as well just have none.






Exactly why a flat disqualification from the event no matter what the infringement would work better. :D:D
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Swimming and athletics more often than not have multiple events in that day and they also only last a handful of minutes, if not seconds. Ending someone’s entire race for rolling 10mm is just daft and it will never happen.

Part of the reason they went to disqualification in athletics etc is because it hugely puts people off when the start has to be abandoned and restarted. So that’s solving a different problem and not really comparable.

When I said drop 6 places I meant from their start position, so if they started 6th, did a tiny jump start, make them drop to 12th. If they start 1st they’d drop to 7th. As long as it’s not a ridiculous jump start that puts other people off I think that’s more than enough. If people completely **** up or take the biscuit then fair play, slap a big penalty on them. These tiny jump start penalties need changed though.
 
Lakeland said:
Swimming and athletics more often than not have multiple events in that day and they also only last a handful of minutes, if not seconds. Ending someone’s entire race for rolling 10mm is just daft and it will never happen.

Part of the reason they went to disqualification in athletics etc is because it hugely puts people off when the start has to be abandoned and restarted. So that’s solving a different problem and not really comparable.

When I said drop 6 places I meant from their start position, so if they started 6th, did a tiny jump start, make them drop to 12th. If they start 1st they’d drop to 7th. As long as it’s not a ridiculous jump start that puts other people off I think that’s more than enough. If people completely **** up or take the biscuit then fair play, slap a big penalty on them. These tiny jump start penalties need changed though.
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The only thing with that is when do you make them drop said places ?

When an infringement is noticed or at the end of the race ?

If they are made to drop a few places in the first few laps where everyone is closest then again, plenty of time to make up those places again, and end up with negligible deficit from that penalty.

However if those place drops are added at the end of the race then ok I would agree with that, as long as the rider and team are not told of the drop until the end of the race.

Well done you think you just finished first, unlucky you jumped the start so we are giving you a 6 place penalty you just finished 7th, that I would agree is a proper penalty.




The Rio Honda circuit does not have a huge long run into the first corner, and it is a slow(ish) 180 degree first corner, so advantage at the start is not hugely noticeable.

What would your view have been had Cal moved at the start on a circuit with a huge long straight and fast first corner where the advantage of a rolling start would have been plenty to see him make huge gains in positions probably leading into the first corner?

Are you saying that the exact same infringement on different tracks needs to be treated differently if differing amounts of advantage are made or not ?


That would be hugely wrong.

It has to be same penalty for the same infringement wherever and whenever it happens, that is pure common sense, nothing more.
 
Entai said:
Are you saying that the exact same infringement on different tracks needs to be treated differently if differing amounts of advantage are made or not ?

That would be hugely wrong.
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I know I've said that, as they do in F1 and it's fine and makes the most sense. You've just said in some cases it could be a huge advantage and in others not so much, so I don't know why the punishment wouldn't be adjusted to match. I'm getting a little bored of repeating myself though, so I will bow out of this particular discussion here.
 
AndyCr15 said:
I know I've said that, as they do in F1 and it's fine and makes the most sense. You've just said in some cases it could be a huge advantage and in others not so much, so I don't know why the punishment wouldn't be adjusted to match. I'm getting a little bored of repeating myself though, so I will bow out of this particular discussion here.
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No they don't in F1.

A jump start in F1 is a drive through.

Pure and simple.
 
I can only agree  But I would pay just to watch him ride around a track on his own such awesome skill on a bike :cool:;)
 
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